WHS doesn't work

[wjemather]

To be honest, I don't like the main statistic being an average with stuff dropping of after an arbitary number of games. At least before it was a continuous function, albeit terribly flawed in its skewedness. 0.4 off for every shot under handicap, nothing off for a bad game and only 0.1 on for a really bad game.

I'm told that world class statisticians were involved in WHS. But were they asked, "What statistic should we use for handicap?" or were they told, "we are going to use a simple average" and then asked, "should we average 8 or 10 scores?".

The principle had been more than well tested in the field before becoming the foundation of WHS. The old USGA system used the average of the best 10 from 20 for over 50 years.

 

[Backsticks]

The principle had been more than well tested in the field before becoming the foundation of WHS. The old USGA system used the average of the best 10 from 20 for over 50 years.

In a culture less competitions based than here, and with a more lax concern for playing each of those submitted rounds. People here still cant get their heads around the new system if you top your drive on the first, and say you are going to take a mulligan..but will still submit the card. 8 from 20 worked in an all rounds submitted, but with score massaging. Not with our stronger culture of the score being close to the rules.

 

[Springveldt]

Do you not just aim to shoot the best score you can regardless of whether you have a counting score dropping off?

Every round starts off with that intention but if I'm having a stinker and I don't have a score falling off then it doesn't bother me as much. Or if I'm playing OK or just hanging on I'll try and motivate myself by thinking "let's just shoot level par for these last 4 holes and I'll still get a cut".

 

[wjemather]

In a culture less competitions based than here, and with a more lax concern for playing each of those submitted rounds. People here still cant get their heads around the new system if you top your drive on the first, and say you are going to take a mulligan..but will still submit the card. 8 from 20 worked in an all rounds submitted, but with score massaging. Not with our stronger culture of the score being close to the rules.

You're making the mistake of thinking that the USGA system was only used in the US.
Mulligans have never been permitted, and nor have any number of other rule breaking and cheating activities that you seem to have got stuck in your head as permissible in the US.

 

[Backache]

You're making the mistake of thinking that the USGA system was only used in the US.
Mulligans were also never permitted.

Never permitted is not exactly the same thing as never taken, along with breakfast balls gimmes , drops rather than return to the tee for lost or OOB all seem fairly common from my understanding speaking to people .

 

[Springveldt]

This never makes a difference to me.

Even if I am playing shocking front 9, or it is clear I was never going to make buffer pre WHS, each time I stand up to a shot in the final holes, I'm still trying to hit a good one each time. At least give myself something to remember positively, and give me another reason to come back another day.

I guess I worded it a bit poorly but in my mind I just felt more under pressure each round with CONGU compared to WHS. Of course I go out with the intention to shoot my best score and if I'm having a stinker I'll still try and hit good shots, maybe change my setup or something to see if it works etc.

Under CONGU if I was off 6 and CSS was 71 then I would be going out every round thinking "Need to shoot 79 or better or else I'm getting a raise" while under WHS I can be like "Nothing dropping off today so lets try and get a cut" or "Highest differential is 8.0 so anything under 81 today gets me a cut".

It's just psychological but I feel like WHS puts less pressure on me to perform even although a poor round under CONGU was only a 0.1 lift I just hated to see my handicap go up. Now under WHS, even when I go up I still think to myself "one great round is getting me a massive cut".

I guess I'm trying to say I like the larger raises and cuts under WHS as it feels easier to get back down if you do go up. Either that or I'm just a basket case.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I guess I worded it a bit poorly but in my mind I just felt more under pressure each round with CONGU compared to WHS. Of course I go out with the intention to shoot my best score and if I'm having a stinker I'll still try and hit good shots, maybe change my setup or something to see if it works etc.

Under CONGU if I was off 6 and CSS was 71 then I would be going out every round thinking "Need to shoot 79 or better or else I'm getting a raise" while under WHS I can be like "Nothing dropping off today so lets try and get a cut" or "Highest differential is 8.0 so anything under 81 today gets me a cut".

It's just psychological but I feel like WHS puts less pressure on me to perform even although a poor round under CONGU was only a 0.1 lift I just hated to see my handicap go up. Now under WHS, even when I go up I still think to myself "one great round is getting me a massive cut".

I guess I'm trying to say I like the larger raises and cuts under WHS as it feels easier to get back down if you do go up. Either that or I'm just a basket case.

This 100%.

 

[Springveldt]

Never permitted is not exactly the same thing as never taken, along with breakfast balls gimmes , drops rather than return to the tee for lost or OOB all seem fairly common from my understanding speaking to people .

I'm always sceptical of the US handicaps since so many of their rounds are general play and even then a lot of them submitted scores when they played on their own. It's like a podcast I listen to, both the guys are now down to 3.something yet the majority of their scores seem to be them putting cards in when playing an evening round on their own.

 

[wjemather]

Never permitted is not exactly the same thing as never taken, along with breakfast balls gimmes , drops rather than return to the tee for lost or OOB all seem fairly common from my understanding speaking to people .

Anecdotally, apparently every American amateur golfer cheats constantly, but in reality, it's only a very small minority that are doing it in competition or when submitting scores for handicapping - and I'd guess most of them simply don't know the rules. No different from anywhere else.

Anyway, cheats will always cheat. It isn't the fault of, or a feature of, the handicap system.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

I'm always sceptical of the US handicaps since so many of their rounds are general play and even then a lot of them submitted scores when they played on their own. It's like a podcast I listen to, both the guys are now down to 3.something yet the majority of their scores seem to be them putting cards in when playing an evening round on their own.

See, I don’t really have a problem with this. Or general play scores. Honest people will be honest, cheats will cheat. Some people don’t even know they are.

I’ve played enough rounds now with people putting in a card, where they have not played by the rules even though someone is marking their card to realise that every handicap is derived in a completely different way, to a completely different set of rules and not to worry about it.

I don’t get why people feel under pressure in a weekly Stableford or monthly medal. It’s no different at all to putting in a general play card.

 

[Backache]

I'm always sceptical of the US handicaps since so many of their rounds are general play and even then a lot of them submitted scores when they played on their own. It's like a podcast I listen to, both the guys are now down to 3.something yet the majority of their scores seem to be them putting cards in when playing an evening round on their own.

If it's the same podcast, the chap admitted that in competition which he has just started doing one of the problems when he had a high score was that he had to putt out.

 

[Backache]

Anecdotally, apparently every American amateur golfer cheats constantly, but in reality, it's only a very small minority that are doing it in competition or when submitting scores for handicapping - and I'd guess most of them simply don't know the rules. No different from anywhere else.

Anyway, cheats will always cheat. It isn't the fault of, or a feature of, the handicap system.

Well my understanding is that the practice is common in social rounds which are all meant to be submitted for handicap and is not really regarded as cheating.
The WHS system has now made the practice of putting in scores form social rounds in part an expectation where adherence to the rules is less strong. Cheating is deliberate, sloppy practice is not but is far more rife in social golf than in competitions.

 

[Whereditgo]

I'm always sceptical of the US handicaps since so many of their rounds are general play and even then a lot of them submitted scores when they played on their own. It's like a podcast I listen to, both the guys are now down to 3.something yet the majority of their scores seem to be them putting cards in when playing an evening round on their own.

To be fair, Mike and Eli have had so many rounds where they have blown up in the last 3 or 4 holes when they seemingly had a chance of shooting level par that I don't question their integrity. They also put the gimme one to bed a long time ago in a listener Q&A episode. It does seem a bit alien that they (general comment for US golfers) seem to accept solo rounds as being eligible for handicap.

If it's the same podcast, the chap admitted that in competition which he has just started doing one of the problems when he had a high score was that he had to putt out.

I thought it was his overall short game that let him down, as opposed to just having to putt out, pretty much his first round of the year after a wrist injury too, so his short game was going to be a bit out of touch. I played both those courses on the same day 3 or 4 years ago with my brother, the greens absolutely beat us up too!

 

[Backache]

To be fair, Mike and Eli have had so many rounds where they have blown up in the last 3 or 4 holes when they seemingly had a chance of shooting level par that I don't question their integrity. They also put the gimme one to bed a long time ago in a listener Q&A episode. It does seem a bit alien that they (general comment for US golfers) seem to accept solo rounds as being eligible for handicap.


I thought it was his overall short game that let him down, as opposed to just having to putt out, pretty much his first round of the year after a wrist injury too, so his short game was going to be a bit out of touch. I played both those courses on the same day 3 or 4 years ago with my brother, the greens absolutely beat us up too!

I am not in any way questioning their integrity. They are clearly adhering to normal practice in the US. They come over as decent honest people but the environment they are counting scores is not the same as British medal golf.
I wasn't suggesting putting out was his sole problem, it clearly wasn't but he did say it was one of his problems and he clearly wasn't used to doing it as normal practice and was part of his adaptation to 'tournament golf'.

 

[Alan Clifford]

i really don't understand gimmies. You reckon you are sure you are going to get the ball in the hole. OK, I'm sure I'm going to get the ball on the fairway. Should I give myself a gimme drive?

 

[PJ87]

i really don't understand gimmies. You reckon you are sure you are going to get the ball in the hole. OK, I'm sure I'm going to get the ball on the fairway. Should I give myself a gimme drive?

Gimmies are an important part of match play tho .. give them short putts until it matters then they get the nerves.

 

[Alan Clifford]

Gimmies are an important part of match play tho .. give them short putts until it matters then they get the nerves.

I wouldn't disagree with that. It's really in social golf I find it odd. What's the point of playing in a sport/pastime where the objective is to put a ball into a hole and you don't putt the ball into the hole. I always say, "That's not a gimme, that's a showme". And they still pick it up.

 

[Backsticks]

You're making the mistake of thinking that the USGA system was only used in the US.
Mulligans have never been permitted, and nor have any number of other rule breaking and cheating activities that you seem to have got stuck in your head as permissible in the US.

That would only be for casual rounds, given the push to put in card for all play. I certainly dont think deliberately playing loose with gimmees etc will become the norm here in competition. I dont know, but doubt they do mulligans etc there in comps either.
But we have a clear culture difference - we are not used to lots of submitted cards, where an 8 from 20 was developped. Our smaller subset of 'serious' rounds in competition were the basis of our handicaps. Not every casual game.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

See, I don’t really have a problem with this. Or general play scores. Honest people will be honest, cheats will cheat. Some people don’t even know they are.

I’ve played enough rounds now with people putting in a card, where they have not played by the rules even though someone is marking their card to realise that every handicap is derived in a completely different way, to a completely different set of rules and not to worry about it.

I don’t get why people feel under pressure in a weekly Stableford or monthly medal. It’s no different at all to putting in a general play card.

Perhaps it’s down to the fact that many people, myself included, never submitted general play cards - my handicap was based 100% on competition cards.

That was then…now…I submit occasional GP cards and treat all cards as the same - with them being acceptable for WHS. I have decided to no longer think or refer to them as qualifying cards.

 

[Supernova]

Perhaps it’s down to the fact that many people, myself included, never submitted general play cards - my handicap was based 100% on competition cards.

That was then…now…I submit occasional GP cards and treat all cards as the same - with them being acceptable for WHS. I have decided to no longer think or refer to them as qualifying cards.

New here but I'd thought I'd chime in. I've only scan read the conversation of late in this thread so forgive me if I have taken it the wrong way.

I personally submit GP cards anytime I play away from my home course. My goal is to get my handicap down as low as possible. Doing it at my local is pretty tough. It's a super easy track but with the rating being 63/97 with a par of 69 it's pretty tough to get your handicap down. I've spoken to numerous people from all types of handicaps from Scratch to +20's and even the pro and we all agree that it should be like a 65 course rating (We've been saying it needs to be rerated). I was playing off like 8 as a index and under the new system I think I got 1 shot so for me to get my handicap down I'm going to have to shoot +2 or better which I find really tough.

Now I'm playing away at one of my other local courses near me. Much tougher test with a rating of 69/123 Par 70 I feel I have a way better chance around this golf course,

When we do play these we have no mulligans of course but we do normally have like a 2v2 match going on and we do gimmes but they are not generous at all. If people want to cheat to get their handicap down then that's on them its only really going to bite them in the bum. Its obviously the other way where I see a problem.