WHS doesn't work

[IanM]

How would they check? Surely it can’t be the responsibility of a committee member to phone up every club to check that a particular tee set was open on a specific date before inputting any manual GP card.

I know a club that does

 

[wjemather]

Yes. But, if a handicap committee member gets a number of cards submitted from other clubs, I wonder how many of those committee members phone that club to check if it was on a measured course that day. My guess is, not a lot.

Practically, it seems like the most likely way of finding out about this issue, is when a handicap committee member notices away players scores being entered on days where the score submission was closed. And, I'm sure this rarely happens as well. Hence why it would be a good idea that those with administrative access could get a warning when entering such a score, with the WHS dotgolf platform indicating that the tees were closed that day.

How would they check? Surely it can’t be the responsibility of a committee member to phone up every club to check that a particular tee set was open on a specific date before inputting any manual GP card.

The first step is querying the players as to why they are returning physical cards and how their rounds were pre-registered for handicapping. What happens next depends on the response but if necessary, the host club should be contacted to verify.

Also, a course may not be inactive for the whole day. On several occasions recently, our course has been fully open by mid-late morning having started on temporary greens (with bucket holes).

 

[Swango1980]

The first step is querying the players as to why they are returning physical cards and how their rounds were pre-registered for handicapping. What happens next depends on the response but if necessary, the host club should be contacted to verify.

Also, a course may not be inactive for the whole day. On several occasions recently, our course has been fully open by mid-late morning having started on temporary greens (with bucket holes).

So, I'm not actually sure how players go about pre-registering scores for Away courses these days to be honest. Presumably, if there is a good way of doing it and it has been followed, then a handicap secretary will not need to contact the player when they get the card, because there will be a record somewhere of them having pre-registered. It is worrying if a handicap sec has to contact a player to ask how they pre-registered, and there answer is simply "ohhh, I just asked at the pro shop and they aid it was fine".

Then contacting the host club seems a right pain in the neck, and I wonder how many clubs actually do this. All sorts of practical issues such as:

• pointless in phoning the club, as the likelihood of you getting in touch with anyone that would have a clue is minimal.
• assuming committee members or club pros won't remember exactly when course was qualifying or not, is there an easy way for them to check to see when it was closed on their system?
• Sending out e-mails to clubs seems like there will be all sorts of waiting times. Some will respond immediately, some might not reply at all. You could have many open "investigations" at any given time
• If clubs have many away scores submitted, even if many are from the same few players, I can see this taking a lot of time and effort, to confirm every single time the status of a golf course.
• Clubs may be less inclined to check in summer months. But, while one course might have been fully playable all winter, another course may be closed for qualifying well into the summer. Bad course conditions, maintenance, etc. So, if you don't fully investigate every single score that comes in, then you cannot be sure you are missing the fact some scores are being submitted that should not.

In relation to time of day, I get that. Does the system tell you the exact time the course was closed for scores, even if a club contacts another to ask the question (see second bullet point above)? In that sense, it adds another element to their investigation, having to ask the player who submitted the score what time they played the round at.

I still think the above is probably done by less than 1% of clubs. There may be a bit of an investigation into pre-reg and all that, but I don't see them contacting all the other clubs and finding out the status of the course on all the relevant days. I think they'll be more inclined to trust the player, and assume the course was set up properly.

Hence, if a club can close their tees on the system on any given day, I don't see why it wouldn't be a huge help to keep that in the memory, so if a score is ever entered on the system at a later date, this information if flagged. It could even give the times of day this was relevant for, so if it was only closed partly through the day, then the handicap sec could then contact the player to ask what time they played (or even request members put the starting time on the card)

 

[wjemather]

So, I'm not actually sure how players go about pre-registering scores for Away courses these days to be honest. Presumably, if there is a good way of doing it...

They use the MYEG app and/or follow the process defined by their handicap committee.

 

[rulie]

Is there a responsibility on the players involved?

 

[Swango1980]

They use the MYEG app and/or follow the process defined by their handicap committee.

I'm ruling out the MyEG App in this scenario, obviously, as we've already established it couldn't be used on the day, as it was closed by the home club.

So, I'm wondering what the process to pre-register from most clubs is, if MyEG is not working. If they have one, then I assume they won't need to contact the player about how they pre-registered once they receive the score.

 

[Swango1980]

Is there a responsibility on the players involved?

There is always responsibility on players. But, if we were to fully accept the responsibility of the player, and assume what they have done is good and proper, I don't suppose there would ever be a need for things like pre-registration.

And, I believe that there are a heck of a lot of golfers who are oblivious to things like the set up of a course including temporary greens and reduced yardage, and how they apply to the handicap. A player could go out and shoot 48 points on 18 temporary greens, course reduced by about 500 yards and bucket holes, and be genuinely ecstatic and think they've had one of their best ever rounds. They would barely even consider the course could be playing many shots easier, and if they want a handicap cut, continue to hand in their card after and think that is perfectly fine.

Which is why, when players are submitting more and more scores for handicaps these days, it is much better to have more controls within the software to stop things like this innocently happening.

 

[Alan Clifford]

So, I'm not actually sure how players go about pre-registering scores for Away courses these days to be honest.

It's an interesting question. How do I pre-register a round I'm playing in South Africa? It has been opened on the South Africa system and I've told my English club that I am submitting all scores for handicap.

 

[nickjdavis]

There is always responsibility on players. But, if we were to fully accept the responsibility of the player, and assume what they have done is good and proper, I don't suppose there would ever be a need for things like pre-registration.

And, I believe that there are a heck of a lot of golfers who are oblivious to things like the set up of a course including temporary greens and reduced yardage, and how they apply to the handicap. A player could go out and shoot 48 points on 18 temporary greens, course reduced by about 500 yards and bucket holes, and be genuinely ecstatic and think they've had one of their best ever rounds. They would barely even consider the course could be playing many shots easier, and if they want a handicap cut, continue to hand in their card after and think that is perfectly fine.

Which is why, when players are submitting more and more scores for handicaps these days, it is much better to have more controls within the software to stop things like this innocently happening.

I'd like to think that in our case it was bloody obvious as both the white and yellow tees are virtually on the reds and in a few cases use tees that are even further forward. I'd also like to think that at time of booking (or on arrival if turning up on-spec) the club would at least have told the players that they would be playing off very forward tees.

Having had a quick look at the players in question, 6 of the 10 were good single figure players and three of them played the course twice in a matter of a few days...so would certainly have been aware of the course status before they turned up for their second round.

I actually don't believe there was a malicious intent to manipulate handicaps lower, as the players would surely have told their home club that they played off the whites!!!

 

[clubchamp98]

Is there a responsibility on the players involved?

There should be.
Players need to find out if a GP card is allowed.

 

[Swango1980]

I'd like to think that in our case it was bloody obvious as both the white and yellow tees are virtually on the reds and in a few cases use tees that are even further forward. I'd also like to think that at time of booking (or on arrival if turning up on-spec) the club would at least have told the players that they would be playing off very forward tees.

Having had a quick look at the players in question, 6 of the 10 were good single figure players and three of them played the course twice in a matter of a few days...so would certainly have been aware of the course status before they turned up for their second round.

I actually don't believe there was a malicious intent to manipulate handicaps lower, as the players would surely have told their home club that they played off the whites!!!

I get some players should find it bleeding obvious. Everyone on this forum would, for example. I'd imagine most low handicappers would also be aware, as I assume they generally have been about a bit and possibly a bit more serious about the game.

But, for many casual golfers, especially those you never see in comps, their ignorance into the most basic things can be mind blowing. Like the chap I played with in one round who firstly didn't know that air shots counted, and then later in the round after he marked his ball before an 8 foot putt, went to the opposite side of the green, and started practicing 8 foot putts with his ball while we all putted out.

Our 530 yard Par 5 was reduced to a 220 yard par 3, with a bucket hole, for much of the winter. Several other holes had drastic changes. Didn't stop some players strutting off the green after getting a 4 or 5 and a good chunk of points. One guy got a 3, and was so proud of his first eagle. These are the types of golfers that I've no doubt would happily hand in their scores after such rounds, and not even question whether it was acceptable.

 

[rulie]

As a former ice hockey coach used to say about players, "You can't teach fast and you can't fix stupid".
There's no way that any system or computer is going to fix some of the things that are being reported on this topic!

 

[clubchamp98]

As a former ice hockey coach used to say about players, "You can't teach fast and you can't fix stupid".

Is that aimed at the players or the idiots that dreamed this system up ?

 

[Swango1980]

As a former ice hockey coach used to say about players, "You can't teach fast and you can't fix stupid".
There's no way that any system or computer is going to fix some of the things that are being reported on this topic!

Well, actually, on the specific issue that was being discussed, it can.

The MyEG App has been set up so that clubs can switch it off when the course is not acceptable for scores. That would not be necessary if we could rely on all players to know when scores are acceptable. But, to stop players using the system when they should not, this feature was put into the software.

So, all we are talking about is extending that for Away players. It is essentially in that Away players can also not use MyEG directly when course has it turned off. The suggestion is simply that an extension of that to deal with players trying to get their handicap secs to enter scores at a later time, where the handicap sec will be informed of the status of the course, rather than relying on the judgement of the "stupid" player.

I agree, not much technology can do with golfers who don't know air shots count

 

[rulie]

Is that aimed at the players or the idiots that dreamed this system up ?

Those that contributed to the system were very knowledgeable and have good intentions. Perhaps they underestimated the category of players that wouldn't understand, or didn't want to understand.

 

[wjemather]

Those that contributed to the system were very knowledgeable and have good intentions. Perhaps they underestimated the category of players that wouldn't understand, or didn't want to understand.

There is really very little for players to understand.

 

[rulie]

We have an "off season" that prevents scores being posted from any course in the region. It's not up to the clubs or players to understand, it's just turned off.

 

[Swango1980]

There is really very little for players to understand.

We'll just ignore the ELEVEN players (and their handicap committees) that nick spotted had put in scores when the course was not acceptable for scores.

Either Nick is exaggerating, or these are the only 11 times this has happened in the UK, and not happened at any other club.

But, on probability, I think there could be hundreds, if not thousands of these cases UK wide.

 

[rulie]

There is really very little for players to understand.

It that's true, why are there so many posts in this thread that allude to players not understanding/complying?

 

[wjemather]

It that's true, why are there so many posts in this thread that allude to players not understanding/complying?

Almost all issues that have been raised here are due to the failings of clubs and committees - those who do need to know more - not players, who don't.

Players not complying is a different issue.