WHS doesn't work

[rulefan]

For clarity, WHS depends on the Course and Slope Rating System, but no rating systems are part of WHS - they exist entirely separately.

In fact the USGA introduced Course Rating System over 50 years ago and Slope came in some 40 years ago.

 

[Swango1980]

SSS/CSS is now PCC, which is universally decried as useless.

Slope is an abomination, your course SSS took care of handicap vagaries course to course, now you have this ridiculous moving handicap nonsense, to have a different handicap wherever you play is nonsense, folks are baffled by it, and it makes no sense.

Slope is absolutely an improvement, rarely have I seen such an ignorant and misinformed opinion.

For example, in very general terms, at a course of 8000 yards one player may give another player 36 shots. If those players then played a course of 5000 yards, under the old system the high handicapper would still get 36 shots. Very unfair on the low guy, given the course is immensely shorter and less distance for the high handicapper to demonstrate their worse ability by playing more shots.

But, using Slope, the higher handicapper may only get 25-30 shots on shorter course, not 36. So it is fairer to low handicapper. And vice versa when going from the 5000 to.8000 yard course.

 

[Kennysarmy]

I saw first hand the most obvious case of handicap manipulation ever yesterday.

6 handicap golfer 3 years ago now off almost 14, last 3 general play cards all in the 90's, one par in 54 holes of submitted cards and yesterday played against him in knockout match and he had every shot in the bag and great ball striking.

 

[clubchamp98]

I saw first hand the most obvious case of handicap manipulation ever yesterday.

6 handicap golfer 3 years ago now off almost 14, last 3 general play cards all in the 90's, one par in 54 holes of submitted cards and yesterday played against him in knockout match and he had every shot in the bag and great ball striking.

Yes it’s happening we all know it.

 

[wjemather]

I saw first hand the most obvious case of handicap manipulation ever yesterday.

6 handicap golfer 3 years ago now off almost 14, last 3 general play cards all in the 90's, one par in 54 holes of submitted cards and yesterday played against him in knockout match and he had every shot in the bag and great ball striking.

I fully expect you have reported this to your handicap committee, so the player concerned will be investigated and dealt with appropriately.

 

[RichA]

I saw first hand the most obvious case of handicap manipulation ever yesterday.

6 handicap golfer 3 years ago now off almost 14, last 3 general play cards all in the 90's, one par in 54 holes of submitted cards and yesterday played against him in knockout match and he had every shot in the bag and great ball striking.

You should be flattered if you think he's spent 3 years manipulating his handicap just to beat you in a club matchplay comp.

 

[clubchamp98]

I fully expect you have reported this to your handicap committee, so the player concerned will be investigated and dealt with appropriately.

Genuine question.
If this is reported to Comittiee what can they do.?
1..Player has been struggling for three years gone up 8 shots and just has a great day in a knockout match.

2 He’s a genuine cheat but how do you prove it given he’s gone up over a three year period ?
Both could be true!

The system is fundamentally flawed given your Competition handicap can be manipulated in social golf using GP cards.

This system is making us all snitches!

 

[IanM]

virtually

You should be flattered if you think he's spent 3 years manipulating his handicap just to beat you in a club matchplay comp.

Oh yes, that's the only round he's playing this year!

 

[Kennysarmy]

I fully expect you have reported this to your handicap committee, so the player concerned will be investigated and dealt with appropriately.

I am composing an email with my evidence now, both from my witness of his ability, the data that cannot be hidden on My EG and anecdotal evidence from others.

 

[IanM]

A proliferation of general play cards muddies the waters.

Yes, you could mess with the old system, now it's much easier.

 

[Kennysarmy]

Genuine question.
If this is reported to Comittiee what can they do.?
1..Player has been struggling for three years gone up 8 shots and just has a great day in a knockout match.

2 He’s a genuine cheat but how do you prove it given he’s gone up over a three year period ?
Both could be true!

The system is fundamentally flawed given your Competition handicap can be manipulated in social golf using GP cards.

This system is making us all snitches!

Doesn't seem to struggle in club comps or matches, doesn't seem to be able to get many pars or ANY birdies in general play cards, yet can shoot to +1 in a honour board comp.
It's HIGHLY suspicious.

 

[wjemather]

Genuine question.
If this is reported to Comittiee what can they do.?
1..Player has been struggling for three years gone up 8 shots and just has a great day in a knockout match.

2 He’s a genuine cheat but how do you prove it given he’s gone up over a three year period ?
Both could be true!

The system is fundamentally flawed given your Competition handicap can be manipulated in social golf using GP cards.

This system is making us all snitches!

Nothing should be done on the basis of a solitary anecdotal report. The committee's job is to investigate, and come to a conclusion based on knowledge of the individual, their handicap record and speaking to any relevant third-parties. The measures that can be taken with respect to handicapping are numerous: handicap suspension, freeze, adjustment, etc. There are also disciplinary measure available to the club concerned, and they may wish to involve the county union.

Handicaps can be manipulated in competitions just as easily as in general play.

It really shouldn't surprise you to learn that peer-review systems are reliant on peer-review and that requires reporting of suspicious scores/activities - immature playground attitudes do not help the system to function effectively.

 

[wjemather]

Doesn't seem to struggle in club comps or matches, doesn't seem to be able to get many pars or ANY birdies in general play cards, yet can shoot to +1 in a honour board comp.
It's HIGHLY suspicious.

The EG WHS Platform provides a simple 'comp vs gp' report that committees should be monitoring that highlights precisely this pattern of scoring. Perhaps your committee have overlooked it while performing their routine tasks?

 

[Kennysarmy]

The EG WHS Platform provides a simple 'comp vs gp' report that committees should be monitoring that highlights precisely this pattern of scoring. Perhaps your committee have overlooked it while performing their routine tasks?

Or perhaps he enters mainly knock-outs, team comps and things like ProAms etc. where an individual score is not posted to the platform?

 

[IanM]

The EG WHS Platform provides a simple 'comp vs gp' report that committees should be monitoring that highlights precisely this pattern of scoring. Perhaps your committee have overlooked it while performing their routine tasks?

I wonder how many clubs have a handicap committee that operates in the way you assume they do/hope they do.

Genuine question, I've no idea, but I suspect it's a minority.

 

[Bdill93]

I wonder how many clubs have a handicap committee that operates in the way you assume they do/hope they do.

Genuine question, I've no idea, but I suspect it's a minority.

I'd bet a good £100 that my club never have

 

[AussieKB]

In OZ it is all left to the computer.....cannot ever remember of a club challenging someones handicap, I have been a member of three clubs and play numerous others in Open's.

Now a lot of people at lot's of clubs and it has never been questioned even though we all know people who game the system.

 

[ntommo]

Its very difficult to prove, there are these types everywhere. They know the system and how to work it. Even in competitions they can still manipulate their score but how do you prove it, this is why handicap committees are fairly powerless to do anything. You can cut them but you have to first inform them and they can appeal it and then go to the County who would need proof of wrong doing.

 

[RichA]

But then there are some whose HI just fluctuates because they put all their GP rounds in.
My pal does this. He plays virtually every day. In the last 18 months he's gone from 17 to 19 to 10 to 14 to 9. I think he's won one comp over that period.
If you were a stranger paired with him during one of his months you'd be anticipating banditry, but you'd be unfairly maligning him.

 

[Swango1980]

Its very difficult to prove, there are these types everywhere. They know the system and how to work it. Even in competitions they can still manipulate their score but how do you prove it, this is why handicap committees are fairly powerless to do anything. You can cut them but you have to first inform them and they can appeal it and then go to the County who would need proof of wrong doing.

I know of a chap that seems to do consistently very very well in most club competitions. He isn't a high handicapper, but I wonder if he simply performs differently (better) when in a competition?

In his last 20 scores, 12 were competition and 8 General Play. His average Score Diff in the competition rounds is 6.8, and his average for the GP rounds is 10.4.