WHS - current GM article

[clubchamp98]

IMHO WHS is actually a pretty good way to track your current form, certainly better than UHS was. The thrust of this thread seems to be that people are concerned that handicaps are being manipulated. Perhaps the way WHS works makes it easier to manipulate one's HI. But let's be realistic - any handicapping system that isn't rigourously enforced by official observers accompanying players on all counting rounds will be vulnerable to manipulation. But of course that's not feasible. So some players will choose to manipulate it. Therefore "fair competition" in handicapped events is pretty much unachievable.
I'm not a good golfer (currently 14.9) and I treat this game as me against the course. I use HI as a moderately objective way to measure my own progress (or lack thereof). I don't care what others' HI is. When I enter comps, getting in the prizes is not the goal (although I'll admit it's a nice bonus). And when someone comes in with a ridiculous score, the inevitable chorus of "bandit" around the clubhouse is just good natured banter. Nobody is genuinely outraged - not at my club, anyway.
If serious golfers want fair competition, just enter scratch events.

We only have one scratch comp a year.
So I would pay £1400 a year to play in one comp. (Or have to pay for opens that I would be balloted out of anyway)

WHS has killed competition golf for so many golfers who are competitive.
you don’t think like that and that’s fine it’s your choice.

Most single figure golfers can’t compete with scratch golfers it’s a different game!

 

[clubchamp98]

That is because that is not the policy.
The policy is to refuse entries to players whose handicap records show a significant discrepancy between their gp and comp score differentials. It is not a limit on the number of gp scores a player can have. In the absence of any significant discrepancy, 4 (or more) gp scores is acceptable for entry.

It is the policy.

Scratch guy 8 comp cards!
Scratch guy 4 GP cards 4 comp cards !

Who gets the spot!

 

[cliveb]

We only have one scratch comp a year.
So I would pay £1400 a year to play in one comp. (Or have to pay for opens that I would be balloted out of anyway)

WHS has killed competition golf for so many golfers who are competitive.
you don’t think like that and that’s fine it’s your choice.

Most single figure golfers can’t compete with scratch golfers it’s a different game!

It sounds like you are a competitive type of person whose aim is to beat others at whatever game you play. That's fine, I understand there are people like that. (I'm not one of them, and it may well be because I don't have the talent to aspire to it).

But I respectfully suggest that you've chosen the wrong sport if you want fair competition - golf handicapping can never be genuinely fair.

 

[wjemather]

It is the policy.

Scratch guy 8 comp cards!
Scratch guy 4 GP cards 4 comp cards !

Who gets the spot!

All scores are analysed , not just counting scores. Ballots are based on handicap index immediately after the closing date for entries.

I'd have to look up what happens when multiple players, whose entries have been accepted, are on the mark.

 

[Teebs]

Yorkshire Amateur is at Ganton in 2024. Handicap limit of 6.4 but I can imagine it being over subscribed.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Yes, I am suggesting the same, thats why I would consider many low HIs are vanity-lite ones.

But those low HI players are playing to the best of their ability every time they play a handicap qualifying score.
Their main hobby is playing scratch events, not nett events or social golf.

I am aware of players in the 12 to 20 range who maintain a vanity handicap so that when they take part in their main hobby of social golf, they can play to that handicap 50% or more of the time.

 

[rulefan]

It is the policy.

Scratch guy 8 comp cards!
Scratch guy 4 GP cards 4 comp cards !

Who gets the spot!

Under EG rules - neither. They each have to have 20 cards.

 

[wjemather]

Under EG rules - neither. They each have to have 20 cards.

I assume only their counting scores were being referenced.

However, the policy states: "Where a handicap record contains less than 20 scores England Golf may obtain further information on the players ability. This includes, but is not limited to, contacting the players current or previous home club and/or the county in which their club is affiliated."

 

[nickjdavis]

Referring back to a post I made in the WHS doesnt Work thread just over a year ago...

WHS doesn't work

Yup I gotta agree with you, something does not add up at your place I just checked another course here I played last weekend again with HI of 15.6 at a course rated 70.1/127 and had to play off 16 course handicap off tees measuring 6,300 yards and tough enough to be used as a European tour...

forums.golfmonthly.com

I've added some numbers in for 2023 cobbled from 10 stableford comps (yes 10 isnt a vast amount of data but its a similar sample size to the previous years).

Not much change really....average winning handicap for 2023 is perhaps skewed downwards very slightly by a single digit golfer who hit a purple patch and won two comps in three days....would be closer to 21 without his two wins.

No significant changes in scoring patterns, low handicappers still having the edge over higher handicappers when it comes to average finishing positions (normalised to represent a field of 100). No one is scoring wildly higher as a group than any other group.

General conclusions much the same as a year ago.

 

[Backsticks]

Referring back to a post I made in the WHS doesnt Work thread just over a year ago...

WHS doesn't work

Yup I gotta agree with you, something does not add up at your place I just checked another course here I played last weekend again with HI of 15.6 at a course rated 70.1/127 and had to play off 16 course handicap off tees measuring 6,300 yards and tough enough to be used as a European tour...

forums.golfmonthly.com

I've added some numbers in for 2023 cobbled from 10 stableford comps (yes 10 isnt a vast amount of data but its a similar sample size to the previous years).

Not much change really....average winning handicap for 2023 is perhaps skewed downwards very slightly by a single digit golfer who hit a purple patch and won two comps in three days....would be closer to 21 without his two wins.

No significant changes in scoring patterns, low handicappers still having the edge over higher handicappers when it comes to average finishing positions (normalised to represent a field of 100). No one is scoring wildly higher as a group than any other group.

General conclusions much the same as a year ago.


View attachment 50532

Interesting. Clear data, and not just a single anecdote of the the 'my mate shot -1 gross and was beaten by three shots by a 27 handicapper' variety, that shows for not single point data, that WHS has made no change to the situation. Maybe its the 15-21hc range who should be up in arms, having been informed that WHS would be fairer, and not discriminate against them in favour of low HIs. Maybe it hasnt quite delivered on that, and the upcoming tweaks will correct that and reduce the rate that low HIs have been winning over the last three years. Thats what that data tells us at least.

 

[clubchamp98]

Under EG rules - neither. They each have to have 20 cards.

Only eight count.

 

[rulefan]

Only eight count.

an entry may be refused if .......

a) a handicap record (most recent 20 scores) that contains more than 4 (four) General Play scores,
(b) an incomplete handicap record where fewer than 20 scores have been returned.

 

[Birdie2]

It sounds like you are a competitive type of person whose aim is to beat others at whatever game you play. That's fine, I understand there are people like that. (I'm not one of them, and it may well be because I don't have the talent to aspire to it).

But I respectfully suggest that you've chosen the wrong sport if you want fair competition - golf handicapping can never be genuinely fair.

This is an interesting one. I’ll try and split it down in 2 ways if I can!!

There’s those who play of single figures and those who play of low single figures. I see it a lot at my club… the single figure golfer (maybe 7 or 8 hcp) is trapped in the realm of 12-14 handicappers who are picking up the money every week in comps or swindles.

Lower single figure players are equally scratching their heads. Especially if they are not good enough for the scratch circuit, and believe me there’s plenty of them! There are a bunch of 5hcp’s and below that are great golfers but are nowhere near the scratch end of the game - club golf in my opinion does nothing to recognise this.

I cannot agree that it’s the wrong sport for these people as you’re suggesting - clubs can and should do more! If I was being cynical I’d suggest golf is the only game where the worse you are the better advantage you have due to inconsistency!!!

 

[Gopher]

Referring back to a post I made in the WHS doesnt Work thread just over a year ago...

WHS doesn't work

Yup I gotta agree with you, something does not add up at your place I just checked another course here I played last weekend again with HI of 15.6 at a course rated 70.1/127 and had to play off 16 course handicap off tees measuring 6,300 yards and tough enough to be used as a European tour...

forums.golfmonthly.com

I've added some numbers in for 2023 cobbled from 10 stableford comps (yes 10 isnt a vast amount of data but its a similar sample size to the previous years).

Not much change really....average winning handicap for 2023 is perhaps skewed downwards very slightly by a single digit golfer who hit a purple patch and won two comps in three days....would be closer to 21 without his two wins.

No significant changes in scoring patterns, low handicappers still having the edge over higher handicappers when it comes to average finishing positions (normalised to represent a field of 100). No one is scoring wildly higher as a group than any other group.

General conclusions much the same as a year ago.


View attachment 50532

Good stats.. the one that stands out for me is in 2022.. Average winning handicap of 25.4 (against 15.2 in 2019) ... I think that was a couple of years after WHS introduction which enabled handicaps to adjust to the system?

 

[Deleted member 29109]

Good stats.. the one that stands out for me is in 2022.. Average winning handicap of 25.4 (against 15.2 in 2019) ... I think that was a couple of years after WHS introduction which enabled handicaps to adjust to the system?

Could have been due to the increase in new and returning players taking up golf during Covid restrictions

 

[cliveb]

I cannot agree that it’s the wrong sport for these people as you’re suggesting - clubs can and should do more! If I was being cynical I’d suggest golf is the only game where the worse you are the better advantage you have due to inconsistency!!!

It is a bit weird that golf seems to be the only sport that bends over backwards to make it possible for seriously untalented participants to have a chance of winning. I can't fathom why that is. How can clubs do anything about it while remaining affiliated to EG?

It's where we're at. If you can't accept that some hacker might beat you, then find another competitive sport.

 

[Hobbit]

It is a bit weird that golf seems to be the only sport that bends over backwards to make it possible for seriously untalented participants to have a chance of winning. I can't fathom why that is. How can clubs do anything about it while remaining affiliated to EG?

It's where we're at. If you can't accept that some hacker might beat you, then find another competitive sport.

Clubs can’t afford to do anything about it apart from have divisions. The alternative is to upset the majority, and risk losing members. Personally, I was quite happy playing in divisions.

 

[nickjdavis]

Good stats.. the one that stands out for me is in 2022.. Average winning handicap of 25.4 (against 15.2 in 2019) ... I think that was a couple of years after WHS introduction which enabled handicaps to adjust to the system?

We had two golfers off 38 win comps which skewed things upwards...taking them out of the equation the average handicap of winners was 22.6

One was a long time member who had a playing handicap of 36 in when the WHS was introduced and has always varied thereafter between 36 and 40.....its just his "level" and this day was his day in the sun.

The other only got his first handicap in April 2022, didn't show any sort of form playing general play through out the summer and maintained a constant handicap in the high 30's. Played one comp and won it (42 points so not "extreme")...unfortunately our rules state that you cannot win wither of the first two comps you play in. He left the club at the end of 2022.

Looking at his record, I can see he is now ten shots better than he was last year. Of the 51 scores in his record, 50 have been through general play.

 

[TheDiablo]

We’ve got 5 ‘major’ net comps a year.

This year they were won with handicaps of 1, 1, 3, 10 and 13. The middle three being 36 holes.

Our main handicap pairs match play was won by 2 guys off 4.

A guy off +2 got to the final of the individual handicap match play

Low guys seem to be doing absolutely fine at my place.

Another week, another low handicapper winning a comp at mine. Chap off 2 going round in level par. 147 entrants

Where do I sign up to say it’s unfair on mid handicap choppers like me?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Clubs can’t afford to do anything about it apart from have divisions. The alternative is to upset the majority, and risk losing members. Personally, I was quite happy playing in divisions.

Competition winner across all handicaps; prize fund allocated and awarded by division if number of entrants justifies two divisions - at my place the number is 60.