WHS - current GM article

[IanM]

Organisations don't generally give away their data.

If it includes non commercial "information" that helps engage disgruntled stakeholders, they damm well do/should.

Therein lies the issue.

 

[Captain_Black.]

If it includes non commercial "information" that helps engage disgruntled stakeholders, they damm well do/should.

Therein lies the issue.

Exactly.
If they we're confident of their claims it would be there for all to see & scrutinise.
The fact that it's being hidden / withheld fuels suspicion that all is not as being claimed.
Also, the shear weight of complaints from lower h/c players adds further fuel to the fire.

WHS is a dogs breakfast, they are just doubling down on their mistakes.

 

[PJ87]

With the new system it just seems people enter more cards so a truer reflection of their current game is given.

Rather than before a round we go in the clubhouse and say I want to put this card in.. which a lot of people never did so only comp cards went in..

Now it's meet at the starters hut.. throw golf balls in a hat to draw groups .. once groups drawn "anyone doing a card today" half the group start one on their phones job done.

Surely a good thing that people are actually putting in more cards.

 

[clubchamp98]

Exactly.
If they we're confident of their claims it would be there for all to see & scrutinise.
The fact that it's being hidden / withheld fuels suspicion that all is not as being claimed.
Also, the shear weight of complaints from lower h/c players adds further fuel to the fire.

WHS is a dogs breakfast, they are just doubling down on their mistakes.

Been saying this for years.
To many on here play golf in a manual and data sheets.
But like football “ you don’t play golf on paper”

Listen to your customers I was always told,

Almost all low cap golfers I know are very dissatisfied with WHS.

But as long as the data says it’s ok !
But a lot of that data is kept secret ( PCC for one)

 

[Jimaroid]

Organisations don't generally give away their data.

Truely, the mind boggles.

 

[rulefan]

But a lot of that data is kept secret ( PCC for one)

And for two and three?

 

[Backache]

It's all a conspiracy. Of course it is.
I should have known.

When organisations refuse to release data it often is a conspiracy or at the very least a refusal to face facts. Its why things like drug trials have to have their data openly published so that they can be held to outside scrutiny.
If the people who are charged with the production and implementation of the WHS are the only ones to have access to the data to see whether or not it works the system sucks

 

[Jimaroid]

When organisations refuse to release data it often is a conspiracy or at the very least a refusal to face facts. Its why things like drug trials have to have their data openly published so that they can be held to outside scrutiny.
If the people who are charged with the production and implementation of the WHS are the only ones to have access to the data to see whether or not it works the system sucks

It brings to mind Reinhart-Rogoff.

 

[rulefan]

When organisations refuse to release data it often is a conspiracy or at the very least a refusal to face facts. Its why things like drug trials have to have their data openly published so that they can be held to outside scrutiny.

The Government, NHS and drug companies have an intrinsic obligation to the public and neither they nor we can opt out.

If the people who are charged with the production and implementation of the WHS are the only ones to have access to the data to see whether or not it works the system sucks

The R&A, USGA etc have no obligation to publish anything they want to withhold. We have simply volunteered to use the facility they offer. If we don't like it, we don't sign up.

 

[Backache]

The Government, NHS and drug companies have an intrinsic obligation to the public and neither they nor we can opt out.


The R&A, USGA etc have no obligation to publish anything they want to withhold. We have simply volunteered to use the facility they offer. If we don't like it, we don't sign up.

They may have no legal obligations. They are monopoly organisations and if people don't complain about a lack of transparency then monopoly organisations tend to serve the organisers rather than those they are meant to serve. If I play golf I do not have an alternative body to play under.
It is our data that is being used as golfers, personally I think they should open it up to scrutiny to those who ultimately provide the data.

 

[Golfnut1957]

Have you seen the data?

Apparently not, which means he is just taking the stated outcomes as gospel, is randomly picking a side to be on and is no better informed than anyone else.

 

[Captain_Black.]

Apparently not, which means he is just taking the stated outcomes as gospel, is randomly picking a side to be on and is no better informed than anyone else.

exactly.
He believes the guff being pumped out which nobody is able to scrutinise.
I believe what I see & what is being relayed to me by others
The two are miles apart.

 

[BrianM]

exactly.
He believes the guff being pumped out which nobody is able to scrutinise.
I believe what I see & what is being relayed to me by others
The two are miles apart.

What’s your handicap?
Maybe try and improve your game instead of whinging about how you perceive that the handicap system is garbage.
I’m pretty sure the people that have made the system know what they’re doing.

 

[fenwayrich]

I pay an annual sum, currently in the region of £10, to England Golf. I find it disappointing that, despite being funded by the handicap golfer, they are not allowed to provide their 'clients' with the evidence that WHS is a better system than the ones that we have had in the past. If they did, perhaps more golfers would be inclined to believe that it has improved the game.

 

[Billysboots]

I’m going to confess that I never really took any notice of what went on under Congu rules, and I don’t take a lot of notice of WHS. I play golf and my handicap will be what my handicap will be.

Low single figure golfers used to moan about not being able to win comps in the old days. They moan about it now. Such is the nature of a handicap based sport.

For what it’s worth, I haven’t seen a great deal of change in winning scores in local comps. A few weeks ago a BB stableford was won near me by a pair shooting 54 points. That used to happen before the WHS, but it was something I noticed more often back then.

I think I’ll just stay in my happy place, with my head in the sand, and play golf.

 

[PJ87]

I pay an annual sum, currently in the region of £10, to England Golf. I find it disappointing that, despite being funded by the handicap golfer, they are not allowed to provide their 'clients' with the evidence that WHS is a better system than the ones that we have had in the past. If they did, perhaps more golfers would be inclined to believe that it has improved the game.

Yet non members can now get an official handicap for what is it £40 a year? They have access to the app so can sign my cards for me if I play a round with them rather than before having to have a member of a club to play a round with to witness the card

For that alone it's a good thing

A friend of mine always used to get a fake club handicap made for when he traveled to posh clubs incase they asked (did a couple of times) but now he just presents his recognised whs handicap provided by golf England for £40 a year

Everyone's a winner

Apart from low handicappers

 

[Captain_Black.]

What’s your handicap?
Maybe try and improve your game instead of whinging about how you perceive that the handicap system is garbage.
I’m pretty sure the people that have made the system know what they’re doing.

My h/c is 4
My game is in pretty good shape thanks.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Depends on how they NR.

If they fail to return a score for no valid reason the get an automatic penalty score which approximates to a close-to handicap score differential and this usually become one of the best 8. Course Handicap - Course Rating I believe.

If they just fail to complete a medal hole but return the card this is given a NDB for score differential calculation.

If they walk in after at least 10 holes the score is made up on net par plus a net bogey for the first hole not played.

Thus it can be manipulative to use the penalty score system and has to be looked at closely by the Handicap Committee.

My place is threatening suspension of handicap if it finds itself having to apply too many, and regular, penalties to any member.

As an aside. I think that if there is an issue about low handicappers being non-competitive in handicap comps then that applies mostly to strokeplay. Matchplay comps are quite another mattter.

note…I’ll reflect on the above comment further after the Winter singles match I am due to play on Monday…giving my opponent 20 shots…

 

[doublebogey7]

See the analysis below carried out by Golf Monthly from data supplied by HowdidIdo.

So yes data has been made available for analysis by at least one independent organisation.

I've also carried out an analysis of my own clubs data over the last ten years. This showed that up until 2021 Cat 1 golfers had a significant advantage over other Category's with Cat 4's having barely any chance. This has changed significantly since the introduction of WHS with old Cat , 2 and 3 golfers having a marginally better chance of winning than others. I strongly suspect this is scewed by new regular golfers who tend to improve the quickest and some lower guys actively protecting their status.


Any member can do this, but too many on here prefer to listen to their bias interpretation of their experiences.

Data Reveals World Handicap System Is Levelling Playing Field

Golf Monthly has obtained data from HowDidiDo that shows the World Handicap System is working effectively to make competition fairer.

www.golfmonthly.com

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I’m going to confess that I never really took any notice of what went on under Congu rules, and I don’t take a lot of notice of WHS. I play golf and my handicap will be what my handicap will be.

Low single figure golfers used to moan about not being able to win comps in the old days. They moan about it now. Such is the nature of a handicap based sport.

For what it’s worth, I haven’t seen a great deal of change in winning scores in local comps. A few weeks ago a BB stableford was won near me by a pair shooting 54 points. That used to happen before the WHS, but it was something I noticed more often back then.

I think I’ll just stay in my happy place, with my head in the sand, and play golf.

And just on this. As the purpose of the handicap system is to put every competitor on a level playing field with an equal chance of winning, then statistics tells me that the handicap range that contains the greatest numbers of competitors is most likely to throw up the winner. At my place low handicappers do well in k/o matchplay comps and relatively well in handicapped strokeplay. But I still hear complaints.