WHS - current GM article

[Teebs]

I have absolutely no problems with WHS for higher handicappers. As you say, they want to be as low as they can.

My gripe with WHS is the impact on low handicappers;
- supplementary cards for old “cat 1” golfers are such a nonsense
- handicap ballots for Opens have created a wave of “vanity” handicap golfers (who love to hand in supplementary cards)

There’s loads who have completely undercut me whilst not playing to their handicap in a single comp, shooting 65 at Mr Mulligan’s Pirate Adventure golf, and getting a lower handicap - who then make the ballot at open events and then stink the place out with 85/87. It’s very frustrating.

An additional thingy I don’t like at all;
My handicap has moved between 3.2 and 4.3 since the new system was introduced. I’ve played 60 odd competitive rounds - 0 supplementaries. My form has varied significantly, but my handicap has remained consistent and I am fine with that.
However, I’ve played plenty of people in matchplay who have been 5-7 handicaps and said “oh I was off 2 a year ago, won the club champs in 2021 under par, then hit a bad patch of form”… and they’ve handed in 35 supplementary cards during a run of bad form.

They then proceed to play like a scratch golfer…

Absolutely on all points. I'm looking to help out with the Scratch team in 2024 and we're trying to think of a fair way to select the team (2023 was the Scratch Captain's mates). We don't have a vast array of low handicaps, but plenty around 3 or 4 - the issue is, half the guys off 3 or 4 never play to their handicaps in comps (so presume keep a low 'cap by handing in GP cards) and the other half don't play comps and just hand in GP cards (so no idea if the handicap is realistic or not).

We were relegated in 2023, so plenty to go at and it'll be interesting to play against low handicaps from other clubs..

 

[Backsticks]

Absolutely on all points. I'm looking to help out with the Scratch team in 2024 and we're trying to think of a fair way to select the team (2023 was the Scratch Captain's mates). We don't have a vast array of low handicaps, but plenty around 3 or 4 - the issue is, half the guys off 3 or 4 never play to their handicaps in comps (so presume keep a low 'cap by handing in GP cards) and the other half don't play comps and just hand in GP cards (so no idea if the handicap is realistic or not).

We were relegated in 2023, so plenty to go at and it'll be interesting to play against low handicaps from other clubs..

Given that you are talking of selecting a team for competition, it is reasonable for you to analyse your candidates disregarding all GP scores, and calculate a 'competition' handicap. And select on those HIs rather than their official ones.

 

[Teebs]

Given that you are talking of selecting a team for competition, it is reasonable for you to analyse your candidates disregarding all GP scores, and calculated a 'competition' handicap. And select on those HIs rather than their official ones.

It's certainly an option and easy to do through the EG app. We want the system to be fair and transparent given it's for the Scratch team and also union team matches.

 

[RichA]

Given that you are talking of selecting a team for competition, it is reasonable for you to analyse your candidates disregarding all GP scores, and calculate a 'competition' handicap. And select on those HIs rather than their official ones.

Surely you just select the ones with the best Top Tracer long drive stats.

 

[Backsticks]

Surely you just select the ones with the best Top Tracer long drive stats.

In the limited handicap range involved here, no. They will all have good distance at that level, and so competition performance of their all round game will be the decider. Their Toptracer long drive stats is what has them on Teebs squad list in the first place.

 

[Swango1980]

In the limited handicap range involved here, no. They will all have good distance at that level, and so competition performance of their all round game will be the decider. Their Toptracer long drive stats is what has them on Teebs squad list in the first place.

At our club, the captain just picks who he thinks will play best, regardless of handicap. So they'd happily pick a 6 or 7 handicapper who is steady, and never even try and get in touch with a 2 or 3 handicapper who is never seen in comps or around the club much.

 

[clubchamp98]

Ours is on handicap.
even down to decimal points.

 

[Birdie2]

At our club, the captain just picks who he thinks will play best, regardless of handicap. So they'd happily pick a 6 or 7 handicapper who is steady, and never even try and get in touch with a 2 or 3 handicapper who is never seen in comps or around the club much.

The irony being those 2 or 3 handicaps could be legitimate but they don’t enter the comps as they can’t compete with the ‘div 1’ mentally full of 8-12 handicappers

 

[D-S]

Absolutely on all points. I'm looking to help out with the Scratch team in 2024 and we're trying to think of a fair way to select the team (2023 was the Scratch Captain's mates). We don't have a vast array of low handicaps, but plenty around 3 or 4 - the issue is, half the guys off 3 or 4 never play to their handicaps in comps (so presume keep a low 'cap by handing in GP cards) and the other half don't play comps and just hand in GP cards (so no idea if the handicap is realistic or not).

We were relegated in 2023, so plenty to go at and it'll be interesting to play against low handicaps from other clubs..

Is it a foursomes or singles league?

 

[JonnyGutteridge]

Absolutely on all points. I'm looking to help out with the Scratch team in 2024 and we're trying to think of a fair way to select the team (2023 was the Scratch Captain's mates). We don't have a vast array of low handicaps, but plenty around 3 or 4 - the issue is, half the guys off 3 or 4 never play to their handicaps in comps (so presume keep a low 'cap by handing in GP cards) and the other half don't play comps and just hand in GP cards (so no idea if the handicap is realistic or not).

We were relegated in 2023, so plenty to go at and it'll be interesting to play against low handicaps from other clubs..

It’s silly isn’t it. A handicap used to be a reliable tool, generally, for knowing how good someone really is - but they’re much less indicative now, really.

My 4 handicap feels somehow less impressive these days. Think it’s because everyone knows plenty of 4 handicaps that are a bit rubbish!

The other reason supplementary cards are nonsense is because of course conditions and PCC being inadequate. Comp setups are full length courses, tricky pins, rolled greens (PCC +0)… Whereas Supp cards are handed in with forward tees, easier pins, softer greens… and often, no pressure at all (PCC +0).

 

[Teebs]

Is it a foursomes or singles league?

Singles..

 

[Teebs]

It’s silly isn’t it. A handicap used to be a reliable tool, generally, for knowing how good someone really is - but they’re much less indicative now, really.

My 4 handicap feels somehow less impressive these days. Think it’s because everyone knows plenty of 4 handicaps that are a bit rubbish!

The other reason supplementary cards are nonsense is because of course conditions and PCC being inadequate. Comp setups are full length courses, tricky pins, rolled greens (PCC +0)… Whereas Supp cards are handed in with forward tees, easier pins, softer greens… and often, no pressure at all (PCC +0).

Indeed. I played with a guy last year who was off 1. I didn't ask his handicap all the way round as I presumed he was around 12-14. Got to the end of the round, asked him and I was surprised to say the least.

 

[Swango1980]

The irony being those 2 or 3 handicaps could be legitimate but they don’t enter the comps as they can’t compete with the ‘div 1’ mentally full of 8-12 handicappers

If they don't have the mentality to get through that mental struggle, they probably won't be mentally fit enough to represent the club in the scratch league

 

[Deleted member 29109]

Indeed. I played with a guy last year who was off 1. I didn't ask his handicap all the way round as I presumed he was around 12-14. Got to the end of the round, asked him and I was surprised to say the least.

People have bad rounds

 

[wjemather]

Comp setups are full length courses, tricky pins, rolled greens (PCC +0)… Whereas Supp cards are handed in with forward tees, easier pins, softer greens… and often, no pressure at all (PCC +0).

Courses should never be more than 100 yards away from their measured distance, nor should the setup (easy/hard hole locations, slow/fast greens, short/long rough, etc.) vary drastically from day-to-day and competitions.

 

[wjemather]

In the limited handicap range involved here, no. They will all have good distance at that level, and so competition performance of their all round game will be the decider. Their Toptracer long drive stats is what has them on Teebs squad list in the first place.

What is "good distance"? Many will be significantly shorter than 250 yards with a driver.

 

[wjemather]

Absolutely on all points. I'm looking to help out with the Scratch team in 2024 and we're trying to think of a fair way to select the team (2023 was the Scratch Captain's mates). We don't have a vast array of low handicaps, but plenty around 3 or 4 - the issue is, half the guys off 3 or 4 never play to their handicaps in comps (so presume keep a low 'cap by handing in GP cards) and the other half don't play comps and just hand in GP cards (so no idea if the handicap is realistic or not).

We were relegated in 2023, so plenty to go at and it'll be interesting to play against low handicaps from other clubs..

If you don't know their games, I suggest a few squad practice rounds/trials before the season starts. If you don't trust the GP scores, for those playing comps, anyone breaking 80 consistently is probably worth considering. And remember, in general players will only play to handicap once every 5 rounds, and average scores are 3-4 over handicap for most players, so even scratch golfers are averaging mid-70s on a typical CR 71.5 course, and nearly 80 on a tough championship course with a CR around 76.

 

[Teebs]

If you don't know their games, I suggest a few squad practice rounds/trials before the season starts. If you don't trust the GP scores, for those playing comps, anyone breaking 80 consistently is probably worth considering. And remember, in general players will only play to handicap once every 5 rounds, and average scores are 3-4 over handicap for most players, so even scratch golfers are averaging mid-70s on a typical CR 71.5 course, and nearly 80 on a tough championship course with a CR

That's really helpful, thanks.

 

[Voyager EMH]

It’s silly isn’t it. A handicap used to be a reliable tool, generally, for knowing how good someone really is - but they’re much less indicative now, really.

My 4 handicap feels somehow less impressive these days. Think it’s because everyone knows plenty of 4 handicaps that are a bit rubbish!

The other reason supplementary cards are nonsense is because of course conditions and PCC being inadequate. Comp setups are full length courses, tricky pins, rolled greens (PCC +0)… Whereas Supp cards are handed in with forward tees, easier pins, softer greens… and often, no pressure at all (PCC +0).

I have similar experience as 4.3 does not impress.
Yet I seem to perform well in serious competition.
2023 I've come second in my club championship, tied 7th in the county seniors championship where I was ranked something like 22nd in handicap order, beat a 1.5 in the first round of the county seniors scratch knockout 4&3 who was some years younger than me. But all that was done by playing round about to my handicap, not heavily below it.

Yet playing social golf with players in the 12-20 group, I rarely come out tops. They seem to so easily and regularly play below their handicap. Their explanation is often that they don't do very well in comps and don't enjoy them much.
I call that a vanity handicap - one they like to have that they can play to or below 50% or more of the time.

 

[RichA]

Yet playing social golf with players in the 12-20 group, I rarely come out tops. They seem to so easily and regularly play below their handicap. Their explanation is often that they don't do very well in comps and don't enjoy them much.
I call that a vanity handicap - one they like to have that they can play to 50% or more of the time.

I'm in that range but the other way around.
I have a habit of doing well in comps but less so in social rounds - maybe because there's nothing to focus my mind. My 8 counting rounds are all from comps. In fact, so are 10 of the 12 non-counting rounds.
I stopped submitting general play rounds for handicap some time ago because they would make me look like a massive bandit when a comp comes around and I make an effort.
You will definitely kick my next time we play, as long as it's purely social. Although that would involve keeping score, which is tedious.