WHS abuse

[Swango1980]

Now they have a handicap that is possibly faulty. Why not simply let them play in order to get more information and prevent them from winning any or some competitions? Fiddling with the handicapping formula is about as useful as choosing a new leader for a political party. A couple of schemes have been posted here but how many agree with the details. If the issue is about the reliability of the data used to determine handicap as opposed to cheating, wait until the data is reliable.

Now now, no politics . As I said, you could just have clubs prohibit new golfers from being able to win, but that has it's own disadvantages and will probably draw out criticism as well. I'm sure most handicap systems are always "fiddled", although I'd prefer to call it "refined". Of course, I have my suggestion, but if I was within the WHS organisation and had plenty of data at hand, then I would then research and tweak any of my initial ideas. For the sake of this forum in the past, I simply used numbers to demonstrate my logic, rather than say they are the definitive restrictions that should be applied.

Has anyone published any reliable information on the real nationwide incidence of these outlandish scores and their cause, whether it be cheating, inappropriate allocation of new caps or day in the sun etc)?

I'm not sure if there is any publicised information, but I would be shocked if there was. Even if WHS were looking at this behind the scenes, they are only going to publicise anything once they know changes are on the horizon.

In terms of outlandish scores, "cheating" is bound to be a hard one to research, as it is difficult to actually know if someone is actually cheating. I'd agree that outlandish scores pushing into the high 40's / 50's are probably not likely to be cheats, due to the caps. Not unless they've always submitted poor scores in acceptable rounds, so that their low index is far higher than it should be. These "cheats", if that is what they are doing, are probably more likely to be submitting very good / healthy scores in non/acceptable rounds, or a once in a blue moon big club comp. They couldn't be playing in many acceptable score comps and cleaning up though, as their Index would fall anyway.

However, research of new golfers should be one that is very easy to do. Simply process all scores of new golfers, and evaluate how their handicaps fluctuate between their 3rd - 20th rounds. Evaluate scores based on different handicap levels (low, medium, high). Look at the frequency were a player shoots one or more significantly better scores in their 4th-20th rounds in comparison to 1st to 3rd rounds. Then, investigate potential additional reductions (instead of the standard 2.0 for all) that is likely do a much better job of avoiding the crazy high scores. I don't mean to the point were someone who shoots 50 points would now only get 36 points, by applying a huge reduction. 50 points is still remarkable, but instead of 50 points, they get 45 points (or instead of 30 points, they get 25 points, etc). Simply a way to trim scores, to safeguard the unknown after 3, 5, 10 rounds etc, but reduce this trimming as more scores submitted - Note: again, I'm just pulling out these numbers as a demo, not as the definitive solution

 

[Mandofred]

Seems like something I would have liked to do if I were stupidly young again and at Uni......thesis paper on this. Anybody out there young and crazy enough to do this?

 

[clubchamp98]

Thats what a handicap is for EVERYBODY who plays with a handicap - shots to make up for your lack of ability.

Yes I have seven shots but it still dosnt get me into some opens.
I have been balloted out of loads of comps.
What’s the difference.
If golf is that inclusive why ballot me out of them.

 

[OnTour]

77 in a club comp? then back to the pressure of general play cards and the yips.

I’ve always assumed every score uploaded on to the system either needs your card signing off or needs verification by someone digitally via on MYEG / email etc.

Seems like anyone can just upload a score without a marker.

Is this how it works at all clubs?

One person is under investigation at present and seems the system is rife for abuse. Something I cannot get my head around.

 

[wjemather]

Yes I have seven shots but it still dosnt get me into some opens.
I have been balloted out of loads of comps.
What’s the difference.
If golf is that inclusive why ballot me out of them.

How many handicap comps have you been balloted out of?

 

[rulefan]

Yes I have seven shots but it still dosnt get me into some opens.
I have been balloted out of loads of comps.
What’s the difference.
If golf is that inclusive why ballot me out of them.

If you have a 7.0 Index how many elite scratch competitions do you think you would be in contention? Balloting out is only usual in such comps where the cut off is likely to be -2 or even plus.

 

[Backsticks]

I must say, that is rubbish. Have you been a handicap secretary!? Although that can be another reason, it is rarely the case. All golfers start the game at some point, and when they do they have no history to speak of. Of course, everyone accepts they are the most likely to make rapid improvements as they play more and more. So, there is absolutely no accusation of them hiding anything. They simply handed in 3 scores, from effectively an arbitrary point in time (in terms of how form, weather, etc may impact those scores), and they can often be given an initial handicap far too high for them. There is no evidence that the handicap secretary can act upon to cut them further, they can only rely on the system. Hence, it is not unusual for them to shoot crazy good scores, before the handicap catches up and gives a better reflection of their ability.

I have been a handicap sec. Back in the UHS days only though. Yes, I agree its rarely the case. And likely not the case here. This was a simple case of an incorrectly allocated handicap - by 20 shots ! Nobody improves to a 13 hc that quickly with no cards from initial allocation to indicate progress.

 

[clubchamp98]

If you have a 7.0 Index how many elite scratch competitions do you think you would be in contention? Balloting out is only usual in such comps where the cut off is likely to be -2 or even plus.

So you have to be in contention to take part?
How many comps would a 54 capper be in contention.
If golf is so inclusive there would not be any balloting out at all.
But when there is they use your handicap as a marker

 

[clubchamp98]

How many handicap comps have you been balloted out of?

Every one where there is a nett prize.


But have been excluded in the past because I was to low.
The Ted Jarmen at west Lancs. Is 6/12 so a handicap comp I could not play in.
But my handicap has been used to exclude me from a lot of comps.

 

[wjemather]

Every one where there is a nett prize.


But have been excluded in the past because I was to low.
The Ted Jarmen at west Lancs. Is 6/12 so a handicap comp I could not play in.
But my handicap has been used to exclude me from a lot of comps.

So no open handicap comps.
Just scratch comps, where entry is based on ability, and a category 2 handicap comp because you were in category 1.

 

[Wabinez]

Yes I have seven shots but it still dosnt get me into some opens.
I have been balloted out of loads of comps.
What’s the difference.
If golf is that inclusive why ballot me out of them.

probably because there is limited spaces, and all scratch opens I enter are 36 holes in a day. They can't let everyone in....so they restrict to the lowest handicaps who have the highest percentage chance of winning.

I have missed ballots by 0.1 before, or been ballotted out as they used my HI on entry, rather than on the day they perform the draw. Off 7, I would expect you to get in zero scratch opens.

 

[upsidedown]

Every one where there is a nett prize.


But have been excluded in the past because I was to low.
The Ted Jarmen at west Lancs. Is 6/12 so a handicap comp I could not play in.
But my handicap has been used to exclude me from a lot of comps.

Annoying isn't it . When I played in it last year it was 3 to 6 and see this year's was HI 2.8 to 8.
What was even more annoying was that out of the field there was at least 5 no shows ?
Played and marked the card of the winner , nice chap .
As for balloting ,well it happens . I was low enough to get into the 2 English and Welsh Seniors this year but will need to find some form to get in ,in 2023

 

[clubchamp98]

So no open handicap comps.
Just scratch comps, where entry is based on ability, and a category 2 handicap comp because you were in category 1.

That’s right.
Entry based on ability !!
So up to 28 is ok then.

 

[clubchamp98]

probably because there is limited spaces, and all scratch opens I enter are 36 holes in a day. They can't let everyone in....so they restrict to the lowest handicaps who have the highest percentage chance of winning.

I have missed ballots by 0.1 before, or been ballotted out as they used my HI on entry, rather than on the day they perform the draw. Off 7, I would expect you to get in zero scratch opens.

My point exactly
Off 54 I would not expect to be in comps.

 

[clubchamp98]

Annoying isn't it . When I played in it last year it was 3 to 6 and see this year's was HI 2.8 to 8.
What was even more annoying was that out of the field there was at least 5 no shows ?
Played and marked the card of the winner , nice chap .
As for balloting ,well it happens . I was low enough to get into the 2 English and Welsh Seniors this year but will need to find some form to get in ,in 2023

Yes it is.
Why have they changed it ? Was always cat 2 golfers 6/12.
Used to love the Frank Stableford at Wallasey until I started getting balloted out as I got older.

I went to watch a scratch comp last year.
Half the field didn’t break 80 in the morning and didn’t bother in the afternoon.
In perfect conditions.
I have never seen so many vanity handicaps in my life.
Some of them looked like they would struggle to make single figures.

 

[AussieKB]

I agree with that a number of supposedly low handicappers are a joke, someone needs to look at their scores and then reassess them, they are keeping honest low markers out of competitions.

 

[clubchamp98]

I agree with that a number of supposedly low handicappers are a joke, someone needs to look at their scores and then reassess them, they are keeping honest low markers out of competitions.

That’s always happened to some degree.
But seems more prevalent now for some reason.

 

[Swango1980]

That’s always happened to some degree.
But seems more prevalent now for some reason.

I know one guy at my club, off 0, who only posts his good general play scores, and rips his card up when he has a bad one. How he manages to get round pre-registration, I do not know. I think he may pre-register after the round, and enter his score a few hours later maybe. I'm not sure if the handicap secretary knows much about it.

I wouldn't be surprised if some clubs have handicap secretaries that don't deal with this, even if they know about it. Potentially ignorantly thinking it is not harming anyone else by having a lower handicap, or a pride thing that the club has such low handicappers perhaps.

However, I can see why this could definitely have become much more of an issue for entry to scratch competitions. Previously Cat 1 couldn't really submit supplementary scores, except in very specific and limited circumstances. Now, it appears many can find loopholes to pick and choose what scores they submit.

 

[nickjdavis]

I know one guy at my club, off 0, who only posts his good general play scores, and rips his card up when he has a bad one. How he manages to get round pre-registration, I do not know. I think he may pre-register after the round, and enter his score a few hours later maybe. I'm not sure if the handicap secretary knows much about it.

I wouldn't be surprised if some clubs have handicap secretaries that don't deal with this, even if they know about it. Potentially ignorantly thinking it is not harming anyone else by having a lower handicap, or a pride thing that the club has such low handicappers perhaps.

.

We occasionally run a spot check on the times that players pre-register for a round, only on a small handful of occasions we have pulled people up for pre-registering a round at a time when it would be impossible to complete even 14 holes before darkness fell. Only on one occasion did it appear that someone had played earlier and decided to retrospectively enter their score....they feigned ignorance of the rues. Other occasions were genuine errors.

But amongst all the other things that handicap secs are supposed to check, in the few minutes that some seem to think is all that is needed, then this sort of thing at most places would most likely be overlooked.

 

[wjemather]

It's shocking how many of these anecdotes there seem to be coming from just a couple of clubs - must be awful having such a culture of cheating there.

Anyway... players have a responsibility to report such incidents - posting on an internet forum and wrongly blaming the system are no use to anyone.