Ethan
Money List Winner
The Committee's interpretation of what is in the members interests may differ from that of the members, and a lack of transparency would raise some red flags.
What is a fair suspension ?
- Thread starter Neil Grice
- Start date
The Committee's interpretation of what is in the members interests may differ from that of the members, and a lack of transparency would raise some red flags.
JGolfer
Active member
He would have agreed to pay fees based on have access to use the service (the course facilities) if that service is no longer possible, irrelevant of situation (unless they have in their T&C’s that he agreed to) he has every right to either, refuse to pay those months or request those months be carried over (which my club did)
Legally he wasn’t allowed to play due to the course having to be closed, so I don’t think exceptional circumstance would apply (it’s not like an act of god)
But I may be wrong.
Mmmm.
From what you say :
- I would think three months on the harsh side, if its simply on pushing why they wouldnt show you the letter and suggeesting they had something to hide. If the language itself, written, moved into personally abusive or questioning their honesty, then possibly not.
- Golf clubs are groups of friends in effect, and effectively when it comes to the committee level or people likely to be appointed to such a hearing (who no more want to be involved in such a mess than a hole in the head), then since they associate together, they are always going to seem as if they are friends, whether they are or arent.
On the other hand.
- If its a member owned club, then paying up to fund your club during lock down, if that is the members decision, it is the correct one. If you dont agree with your fellow members, then you pay and suck it up, or leave.
- there is no general penalty precedence for this sort of thing. Its so rare, even in golf clubs in general, let alone a single one. Clubs are very unlikely, and correctly so, to have written levels of penalty. So deciding on the individual case is fair enough.
- paying during the suspension can go either way too. Generally likely no written procedure either, as since rare enough in the first place, suspensions are more likely to be of trivial duration or a week or the like, where payment isnt worth considering.
- But given the length of the suspension, combined with the requirement that you continue paying, they are probably hoping that this encourages you to leave if you dont like it. That you are suing the club would also indicate you are indeed outside the thinking of the club, and they would like to see you just leave. No committee wants this sort of hassle anyway.
From what you say :
- I would think three months on the harsh side, if its simply on pushing why they wouldnt show you the letter and suggeesting they had something to hide. If the language itself, written, moved into personally abusive or questioning their honesty, then possibly not.
- Golf clubs are groups of friends in effect, and effectively when it comes to the committee level or people likely to be appointed to such a hearing (who no more want to be involved in such a mess than a hole in the head), then since they associate together, they are always going to seem as if they are friends, whether they are or arent.
On the other hand.
- If its a member owned club, then paying up to fund your club during lock down, if that is the members decision, it is the correct one. If you dont agree with your fellow members, then you pay and suck it up, or leave.
- there is no general penalty precedence for this sort of thing. Its so rare, even in golf clubs in general, let alone a single one. Clubs are very unlikely, and correctly so, to have written levels of penalty. So deciding on the individual case is fair enough.
- paying during the suspension can go either way too. Generally likely no written procedure either, as since rare enough in the first place, suspensions are more likely to be of trivial duration or a week or the like, where payment isnt worth considering.
- But given the length of the suspension, combined with the requirement that you continue paying, they are probably hoping that this encourages you to leave if you dont like it. That you are suing the club would also indicate you are indeed outside the thinking of the club, and they would like to see you just leave. No committee wants this sort of hassle anyway.
Not really. It means you remain a member, your membership is not interrupted, and that you dont need to rejoin. You are a member with reduced rights.
doublebogey7
Head Pro
Have you checked your clubs appeals procedure, there must be one if the club are following Englands Golfs disciplinary procedure, if there isn't one they Iwould suggest you apppeal to your county association in the first instance. A littel supprised that your legal advisor has not suggested this though, as my understandiong of the law is that you must persue all internal avenue's before resorting tocourt action.
jim8flog
Journeyman Pro
See traminator's post #66
From our club's Rules and Regs.
15.9 A suspended member (including a member whose handicap has been suspended) shall be excluded from the Club for the duration of the suspension and cease to have any of the privileges of membership. These include the right to vote at an EGM of the Club, the right to be nominated for or hold office while being suspended but he shall remain liable to pay all subscriptions, levies and other monies due from him.
I suspect that many members do not read their clubs Rules and Regs until they are affected by them.
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
Sorry “I did say as for the ban”I was talking about the three month ban not the Covid as there wasn’t an option for the club about that.
But the ban seems very draconian just for questioning the legality of something.
It’s seems ott to me.
Sports_Fanatic
Assistant Pro
Obviously very different but on the tour:
3 months suspension for a couple of players for recreational drugs.
Simon Dyson given a suspended two month ban for non-premediated cheating although he did seem harshly hung out to dry compared to the likes of others.
Scottish golf club (Strathmore) was temporarily suspended by Scottish golf for running a competition during covid restrictions. They dropped the comp and got reinstated.
All different to a private members club but in the world of golf they seem more serious events than a colorful e-mail. I guess only a very few will actually know about club suspensions straight away.
If it was, don't want to pay as club closed (very common), can you show me legal backing, expletive/colorful language then 3 months seems very harsh and to still be expected to pay. However, if you threatened physical violence or some other intimidation against president or any member, then I'd say fair enough or potentially soft given it is a members club and no place for intimidation.
3 months suspension for a couple of players for recreational drugs.
Simon Dyson given a suspended two month ban for non-premediated cheating although he did seem harshly hung out to dry compared to the likes of others.
Scottish golf club (Strathmore) was temporarily suspended by Scottish golf for running a competition during covid restrictions. They dropped the comp and got reinstated.
All different to a private members club but in the world of golf they seem more serious events than a colorful e-mail. I guess only a very few will actually know about club suspensions straight away.
If it was, don't want to pay as club closed (very common), can you show me legal backing, expletive/colorful language then 3 months seems very harsh and to still be expected to pay. However, if you threatened physical violence or some other intimidation against president or any member, then I'd say fair enough or potentially soft given it is a members club and no place for intimidation.
D
Deleted Member 1156
Guest
You are confusing suspension with expulsion. You are still a member whilst suspended albeit with reduced privileges.
chrisd
Major Champion
I suspect the penalty is to try and force someone who's "upset the apple cart" to leave the club.
D
Deleted Member 1156
Guest
Which is what I said.
Ethan
Money List Winner
One person's opinion of what is abusive may not be another's, nor that of a court.
In a members club, surely legal advice obtained on behalf of the club and its membership, not just the officers of the club, should be available unless something of a defamatory of highly confidential nature is part of it? On a matter such as this, which is probably not covered in the club regulations, that is highly unlikely.
slowhand
Head Pro
Don't tar us with this brush. We have nothing to do with this club and in fact are an extremely tolerant society
Jacko_G
Blackballed
Another colourful email to the club telling them to ram their membership and move on.
Why would you want to go back? Genuinely why?
Why would you want to go back? Genuinely why?
Grantley1988
Assistant Pro
jim8flog
Journeyman Pro
from the OPs post
. Following what i considered a minor altercation with my Club President I was summoned to a disciplinary committee of 3 members who were all friends of the President and without any real explanation was given 3 month suspension.
hovis
Tour Winner
Golf must be your only hobby. Golf definitely isn't a tolerant society
If there’s one thing in golf I can’t abide it’s when committees are unwilling to communicate and rationalise decisions made on behalf of the members to those members. If I am a fee paying member of a private club then I expect there to be transparency around decisions, especially when those decisions hit me in the pocket.
I’m not about to condone members sending rude or aggressive emails, however, there are occasions when I can perhaps understand that such emails arise from frustration at what the “offender” interprets as secrecy, a lack of transparency or someone being economical with the truth.
We only have one side of the story here, so must be guarded. That said, this stinks to me of a committee taking umbrage at a member exercising his right in seeking a full and transparent explanation, detailing how a decision impacting on that member financially had been made. I, too, would have asked to see the alleged legal advice which was costing me money.
The failure of the club to share that advice would have the tendency to suggest that the club may have something to hide. As such, I can understand why the OP is rather miffed.
Regardless of the length of suspension I would not set foot in the place again. I don’t think I could tolerate the prospect of the pink gin brigade smirking at me, thinking they had got one over on me.
I’m not about to condone members sending rude or aggressive emails, however, there are occasions when I can perhaps understand that such emails arise from frustration at what the “offender” interprets as secrecy, a lack of transparency or someone being economical with the truth.
We only have one side of the story here, so must be guarded. That said, this stinks to me of a committee taking umbrage at a member exercising his right in seeking a full and transparent explanation, detailing how a decision impacting on that member financially had been made. I, too, would have asked to see the alleged legal advice which was costing me money.
The failure of the club to share that advice would have the tendency to suggest that the club may have something to hide. As such, I can understand why the OP is rather miffed.
Regardless of the length of suspension I would not set foot in the place again. I don’t think I could tolerate the prospect of the pink gin brigade smirking at me, thinking they had got one over on me.
Mandofred
Well-known member
Golf in the UK is not tolerant. It is if you compare to a middle east dictatorship though.....
Leftie
Tour Winner
Just for interest (or not) an extract from a recent club newsletter ....
"3. To undertake a full review of the Club’s Disciplinary Procedure, and as part of that, to ensure that the procedure applies to all people who use the club premises.
As part of the Disciplinary Procedure review, the Club will be looking to form a pool of members who would be willing to sit on a committee to consider a complaint if called upon.
The current procedure calls on members of the Club Committee to take on this role. However, it can sometimes be difficult to find people on committee who are not connected in some way to the person under complaint.
A wider pool of people from across the membership would therefore help to ensure a truly independent panel is formed to review a case and reach a decision.
Once the revised procedure has been finalised we will contact members again about getting involved in this capacity. "
Progressive or what
I've only been a member of 2 different clubs in the last 25 years so maybe not fully representative, but at both, when the new financial year started and subs were due it was made 100% clear that you were committing to paying a full year's subscription, whether by lump sum or monthly payments, even if you decided to leave/were asked to leave/suspended/whatever, and renewing your membership was an acceptance of that. If you don't like it, then don't renew. Simples! Having said that however, I'm aware of many instances where discretion was used because of illness or hardship - particularly earlier this year.
"3. To undertake a full review of the Club’s Disciplinary Procedure, and as part of that, to ensure that the procedure applies to all people who use the club premises.
As part of the Disciplinary Procedure review, the Club will be looking to form a pool of members who would be willing to sit on a committee to consider a complaint if called upon.
The current procedure calls on members of the Club Committee to take on this role. However, it can sometimes be difficult to find people on committee who are not connected in some way to the person under complaint.
A wider pool of people from across the membership would therefore help to ensure a truly independent panel is formed to review a case and reach a decision.
Once the revised procedure has been finalised we will contact members again about getting involved in this capacity. "
Progressive or what
I've only been a member of 2 different clubs in the last 25 years so maybe not fully representative, but at both, when the new financial year started and subs were due it was made 100% clear that you were committing to paying a full year's subscription, whether by lump sum or monthly payments, even if you decided to leave/were asked to leave/suspended/whatever, and renewing your membership was an acceptance of that. If you don't like it, then don't renew. Simples! Having said that however, I'm aware of many instances where discretion was used because of illness or hardship - particularly earlier this year.
