UK Handicapping system

BTatHome said:
If you don't play in club comps then why do you care though? Your society handicap is handled by your society and by your own admission thats what you play to and that the golf you play too.

If you want to play to 9.8 at your club (which you don't play at) then stick 10 on the card and play to it.
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Cos Congu says you are not allowed to - simple! - and you have admitted something that Congu can,t, a properly run society handicap has as much strength as am imitation one that an average member will have from just three rounds a year
 
LCVreg said:
Cos Congu says you are not allowed to - simple! - and you have admitted something that Congu can,t, a properly run society handicap has as much strength as am imitation one that an average member will have from just three rounds a year
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Which bit of BTatHome's post do you think CONGU forbids you to do?
 
LCVreg said:
To arbitarily change your club handicap! - Suggest a good read of Congu booklet and all will become clear!
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I read the good booklet every night before the Sandman comes.

BTatHome was not suggesting that you could arbitrarily change your handicap, he was suggesting that, on your scorecard in a qualifier, there is nothing to prevent you from entering a handicap lower than your official handicap. That way, you're happy by being allowed to play using the handicap you know is correct, and the CONGU system is happy too - good result all round.
 
Very interesting stuff in this thread, but to be honest, it's never been easier to keep your handicap as accurate as possible what with supplementary scores, 9 holes comps and the like.

Could the original poster not perhaps sacrifice one or two society games to put a supplementary score in at his home club - or do they not run midweek qualifiers as most clubs do?

As for bobmac, I agree with much of what you say on the forum, but certainly not the self-appointed handicaps you seem to be advocating here. Yes, the delusional guy won't win anything of a handicap that's too low for his true ability, but he might just be able to get into events he has no right to be playing in.

As for Slope, few enough people really truly understand the current UHS system and from my understanding, you need to be blessed with Einsteinian intelligence to really get your head round the Slope scheme. Add to that the prospect of never simply being able to enjoy a 'friendly' game without the curse of the scorecard hovering over you (as murph points out), and you can give me the CONGU UHS scheme any day...

DISCLAIMER: I wish to point out that I am in no way connected with, or sponsored by, CONGU and recognise that there are elements of the scheme that may not be 100% ideal. But I challenge anyone to come up with the perfect scheme to succesfully govern the handicaps of golfers who might have a potential 'dispersion' range of 20 shots or more between their best and worst efforts...
 
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JezzE said:
Very interesting stuff in this thread, but to be honest, it's never been easier to keep your handicap as accurate as possible what with supplementary scores, 9 holes comps and the like.

Could the original poster not perhaps sacrifice one or two society games to put a supplementary score in at his home club - or do they not run midweek qualifiers as most clubs do?

As for bobmac, I agree with much of what you say on the forum, but certainly not the self-appointed handicaps you seem to be advocating here. Yes, the delusional guy won't win anything of a handicap that's too low for his true ability, but he might just be able to get into events he has no right to be playing in.

As for Slope, few enough people really truly understand the current UHS system and from my understanding, you need to be blessed with Einsteinian intelligence to really get your head round the Slope scheme. Add to that the prospect of never simply being able to enjoy a 'friendly' game without the curse of the scorecard hovering over you (as murph points out), and you can give me the CONGU UHS scheme any day...
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In many ways I agree with you Jezz, and here's the "but" - when I have a bad round it's a .1 addition every time but when I go out and win a "Club major" so, in fact, the best score on the day out of 110 players, because of some unfathomable CSS calculation, 67 nett (par 71) on a really tough day and playing off 12, my efforts only gets me a cut of one shot on my playing handicap.

Question - how the hell do I get to single figures that way?


Chris
 
chrisd said:
In many ways I agree with you Jezz, and here's the "but" - when I have a bad round it's a .1 addition every time but when I go out and win a "Club major" so, in fact, the best score on the day out of 110 players, because of some unfathomable CSS calculation, 67 nett (par 71) on a really tough day and playing off 12, my efforts only gets me a cut of one shot on my playing handicap.

Question - how the hell do I get to single figures that way?


Chris
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The simple answer would be to shoot a lower score, might not have this right but surely if the css is lower than par its an easier course. The club i was at two years ago was the same, par 70, css was always 67 and i had to shoot 1 under just to make buffer. Still managed to to get a fair few cuts and went from 12 to 9 in the last year i was a member there. Maybe join another club that the css is higher than par, my other club Tain the css is always two over sometimes 3 and if you play well you get a reasonable cut. :)
 
Do it more often, Chris!

Sorry, but I'm not sure I quite get what you're saying here, because surely by the same logic, if you have a truly horrendous round you would have to argue that your handicap should go up by more than 0.1. The system is already loaded in favour of coming down, as you point out - ie, one good round might bring you down 10 times or more the amount one bad round will send you up. And the worst CSS can do is come down 1 so you're only talking about a 0.2 difference compared to it not changing?

I'm sure single figures will come for you, but nobody said it was going to be easy!
 
Handicap systems are essentially simply mathematical or statistical methods for aggregating sets of data (scores) and producing a summary statistic (the handicap). Like any mathematical or statistical model, the answer is dependant on the rules of the algorithm that processes the data, but it does not reveal some metaphysical truth about the subject of the data. It is just numbers.

In the UK system, the rules of the algorithm are mainly concerned with the difference in downward pressure on handicap exerted by good scores versus the upward pressure caused by bad scores./ You could design a handicap system where the upward and downward pressure were equal, and then the handicap would reflect average scores better, but would probably be more unstable. CSS is also a variable but with limited movement. The UK system has 'memory' because it is based on an existing handicap and new scores have limited capacity to change it.

The US system uses a moving average based on 95% of the best 10 out of the last 20 scores. As such, it is more subject to movement because it has no 'memory'. You can have a bad run of scores which changes the entire data set and the previous 20 do not matter at all. Course ratings and slope also have a greater effect on handicap than CSS. Course ratings are the score an expert player should score, and slope is an adjustment to handicap which takes into account the fact that higher handicap players need a greater number of extra shots with increasingly difficult courses.
 
I'm not suggesting that players can regulate their own handicaps. Apologies if I gave that impression.
What I am asking is for Congu to give back handicap secs the power to cut on general play.
Not based on one good round or a purple patch.
You frequently hear stories of people handing in cards well below their handicap and basically been told
"you're wasting your time, we cant do anything".

I agree in the OPs case, a few supp cards would help him, but it's just the general attitude that if you cant do it in a medal on a Saturday morning, it can't count.
I've even heard of hand/secs refusing supp cards because they were played off yellow tees :mad:
 
bobmac said:
I'm not suggesting that players can regulate their own handicaps. Apologies if I gave that impression.
What I am asking is for Congu to give back handicap secs the power to cut on general play.
Not based on one good round or a purple patch.
You frequently hear stories of people handing in cards well below their handicap and basically been told
"you're wasting your time, we cant do anything".

I agree in the OPs case, a few supp cards would help him, but it's just the general attitude that if you cant do it in a medal on a Saturday morning, it can't count.
I've even heard of hand/secs refusing supp cards because they were played off yellow tees :mad:
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I agree, Congu has TOO much power, and many club secs/managers/handicap sec just will not go against what is said in "the bible!" - Mind you, there are also those that are realistic in all these things and basically do their own things in their clubs, and I applaud these that do. Have you or anyone actually written to Congu, and had a reply !?
 
JezzE said:
Do it more often, Chris!

Sorry, but I'm not sure I quite get what you're saying here, because surely by the same logic, if you have a truly horrendous round you would have to argue that your handicap should go up by more than 0.1. The system is already loaded in favour of coming down, as you point out - ie, one good round might bring you down 10 times or more the amount one bad round will send you up. And the worst CSS can do is come down 1 so you're only talking about a 0.2 difference compared to it not changing?

I'm sure single figures will come for you, but nobody said it was going to be easy!
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Ahhhh Jezz if it were only that easy!


It isn't, for me, the maths thats difficult it's just the overwhelming feeling that when I get it all together on those few times a year and shoot a really good score, .6 off my handicap doesn't feel enough. Some years ago the club would also knock off an extra (rule 19) cut as well but CONGU frown upon that and my place now only looks at a (clause 23) extra cut on nett 66 or under. That often means that a low single figue player would have to shoot a new course record to stand a chance of winning.


Chris
 
Back in the day, if you won our Saturday swindle with 42 points or more, it went in the box, and you got cut. Now, it doesn't happen. Good or bad, I'm not sure, but it is no longer an option.
 
murphthemog said:
Back in the day, if you won our Saturday swindle with 42 points or more, it went in the box, and you got cut. Now, it doesn't happen. Good or bad, I'm not sure, but it is no longer an option.
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Exactly, this dictatorial element of Congu is the one thing that is bugging many many people, and indeed there are some clubs who do not even use Congu handicaps ! - The one point that is not being addressed by all of you who think the system is good, if a 10 handicapper belonged to a club with a Par of 69 and a SSS of 68, does that person thence get 5 extra shots when he goes to play a match and or an open at a course with a SSS of 73 (and there are many!) - does he hell!! - that is why slope must ( and will in time) come.
 
Why should he get 5 extra shots. Don't understand the logic for that comment.

And the problem with clubs all doing their own thing is that you lose the parity when players go to different courses to compete - surely an essential element of any all-encompassing handicap system?
 
LCVreg said:
if a 10 handicapper belonged to a club with a Par of 69 and a SSS of 68, does that person thence get 5 extra shots when he goes to play a match and or an open at a course with a SSS of 73
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At last – the nub of your argument.
Perhaps you haven’t grasped what Standard Scratch Score means. It is the score a scratch player is expected to return in normal mid-season course and weather conditions. So in your example he is expected to score 68 in your SSS 68 course and, if he then goes to play your SSS 73 course, he is expected to score 5 shots more – simple.
The same situation will apply to your 10 handicapper – he is expected to score 78 gross on the “easier” course and 83 gross on the “harder” course. If you were to give him an extra 5 shots added to his handicap when playing the “harder” course, he would be expected to score a nett 68.
Is that clear enough?
Oh - I do love a good argument.
 
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