The SNIP

[Doon frae Troon]

I hate the xenophobic Scot Gnats and any other extremists from any side who can’t see that nothing is born out of destruction of nations.

Talking of the gnats...how many caught this story?....STV had to pull a tv ad a few weeks back, that featured young children thanking wee Jimmie for saving them from Corona, I kid you not, one little boy actually said “on behalf of all Scottish children, thank you Nicola Sturgeon for saving us from Covid”. There were a ton of complaints, many of whom compared it to the type of thing you’d see in North Korea, and they weren’t wrong.
luckily someone grabbed it before it was pulled....

https://twitter.com/x/status/1264586550215610369

Oh dear...............You appear to be unaware that STV [like 95% of Scottish MSM] are not supporters of Independence.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

My say isn't gone. It has 13 years to run before I can no longer vote. As it is I wouldn't vote if I felt there was nothing in a manifesto that affected me but I would vote if there were major changes around pensions. Having paid into the system for 40 years, why can't I have a say on my pension rights? And if that say is via the ballot box, I'll vote if I feel its appropriate.

Why is it tenuous having a concern for where my children are and the society they live in? I presume you care very much for where your children will grow up, why can't I?

As for the whole cake; there's an awful lot of things I can't access, and I have no problem with that. I'm not asking for a "whole cake." Do you begrudge me my pension?

Obviously this is a hypothetical discussion so your rights are still there. I'm not El Presidente yet ?.

Clearly you/i will always have concerns about our kids but that doesn't give us the right to vote in a country where you no longer live. If my son moves to Australia with work I don't get to vote there in order to help him out. Our kids have to look after themselves, make their own decisions.

Your pension is something you have paid into, that is enshrined. Your vote, imo, is about the here and now. As I've said, losing your vote, you obviously don't for 15 yrs right now, is part of the equation of the move for me.

Churros or sponge cake, not churros and sponge cake ?, swap sponge cake for Dundee cake if you want the analogy for indy ref2.

 

[Jacko_G]

GIVE BACK OUR OIL, OUR FISHING, OUR RENEWABLES, OUR WHISKY, OUR IRN BRU, OUR SQUARE SLICE, OUR PORRIDGE, OUR GREGGS, OUR HIGHLAND CATTLE, OUR TV, OUR TELEPHONE, OUR PENICILLIN, DOLLY THE SHEEP, OUR SMOKIES.

YOU CAN KEEP ALAN HANSEN THOUGH HE'S A FUD.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

At the time of the referendum I argued that I should get a vote as my elderly mother was still alive and that she could be significantly affected by the outcome. The rest of my family would be able to sort themselves one way or the other. I am not so sure that I should get a vote today - but if my mother was still with us I might still be arguing for a vote - especially as a move back to Scotland in the next couple of years is still on the cards for us.

I'm really struggling with this argument. Your mother would have had a vote, that is how it works. Why should offspring get one because of the knock on impact? How wide does the net spread? Immediate family, cousins, aunties and uncles?

In terms of your last point you can't argue for a vote because of something you might do. What if lots of people were given a vote because they 'might' move to Scotland. The potential for abuse there is massive.

If you want a vote in an election of a particular country then live there. It is pretty straightforward.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I'm really struggling with this argument. Your mother would have had a vote, that is how it works. Why should offspring get one because of the knock on impact? How wide does the net spread? Immediate family, cousins, aunties and uncles?

In terms of your last point you can't argue for a vote because of something you might do. What if lots of people were given a vote because they 'might' move to Scotland. The potential for abuse there is massive.

If you want a vote in an election of a particular country then live there. It is pretty straightforward.

My thinking in 2014 was that independence could very significantly impact my family at home in Scotland - my mother especially. As I would have responsibility for my mother in her later years it mattered to me (and he) whether Scotland would be in or out of the UK - as I could find myself living in Scotland - even temporarily - to support her and organise the external support and care that she might need.

Indeed looking at my wider immediate family in Scotland my thinking was also that if they wanted independence then I should do whatever I could to further that end. However recognising that as an 'exile' the impact of independence on exiles would be very different, I was thinking that maybe there would be a way of only using the views of the Scottish diaspora in the event that the vote was very close (let's say within the margin of polling error). Because a very close vote could be very controversial and highly disputed.

That was then. It was less so then about me moving back to Scotland which was a thought but nothing more. The thinking is much firmer 6 yrs on as retirement looms/beckons...But I am still not convinced I should have a vote.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

My thinking in 2014 was that independence could very significantly impact my family at home in Scotland - my mother especially. As I would have responsibility for my mother in her later years it mattered to me (and he) whether Scotland would be in or out of the UK - as I could find myself living in Scotland - even temporarily - to support her and organise the external support and care that she might need.

Indeed looking at my wider immediate family in Scotland my thinking was also that if they wanted independence then I should do whatever I could to further that end. However recognising that as an 'exile' the impact of independence on exiles would be very different, I was thinking that maybe there would be a way of only using the views of the Scottish diaspora in the event that the vote was very close (let's say within the margin of polling error). Because a very close vote could be very controversial and highly disputed.

That was then. It was less so then about me moving back to Scotland which was a thought but nothing more. The thinking is much firmer 6 yrs on as retirement looms/beckons...But I am still not convinced I should have a vote.

Absolutely it would impact them, either way. There is no question about that. Doon and the SNP will tell you the impact of Indyref 1 is currently very negative, others will tell you independence will be damaging.

That doesn't mean you should have a say in what happens though, just because you have family there. I go back to my previous comment, it really is straightforward, if you want a say then move back. If you remain outside of Scotland then you just have to watch on like the rest of us.

Let's turn this into a golf analogy. Should I be able to vote at a club I used to be a member of? I've moved away, I'm no longer a member, I don't play there anymore but my FiL still plays there so any changes would affect him. Would you expect that?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Absolutely it would impact them, either way. There is no question about that. Doon and the SNP will tell you the impact of Indyref 1 is currently very negative, others will tell you independence will be damaging.

That doesn't mean you should have a say in what happens though, just because you have family there. I go back to my previous comment, it really is straightforward, if you want a say then move back. If you remain outside of Scotland then you just have to watch on like the rest of us.

Let's turn this into a golf analogy. Should I be able to vote at a club I used to be a member of? I've moved away, I'm no longer a member, I don't play there anymore but my FiL still plays there so any changes would affect him. Would you expect that?

...I think you'll have read that I am very much less sure than I was in 2014 over whether or not I should get a vote in a future referendum; that today I tend to feel not - but if I did get a vote, then it should not be in the primary decision but somehow used to understand and maybe incorporate the feelings of the Scottish diaspora in the event of a very close vote either way.

But I say that in the context of there being no referendum in the offing, My thinking might change were one to be called - after all - it's my country too.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

My thinking in 2014 was that independence could very significantly impact my family at home in Scotland - my mother especially. As I would have responsibility for my mother in her later years it mattered to me (and he) whether Scotland would be in or out of the UK - as I could find myself living in Scotland - even temporarily - to support her and organise the external support and care that she might need.

Indeed looking at my wider immediate family in Scotland my thinking was also that if they wanted independence then I should do whatever I could to further that end. However recognising that as an 'exile' the impact of independence on exiles would be very different, I was thinking that maybe there would be a way of only using the views of the Scottish diaspora in the event that the vote was very close (let's say within the margin of polling error). Because a very close vote could be very controversial and highly disputed.

That was then. It was less so then about me moving back to Scotland which was a thought but nothing more. The thinking is much firmer 6 yrs on as retirement looms/beckons...But I am still not convinced I should have a vote.

We all feel differently.
In 2014 I posted off my vote in favour of Yes.
After I had posted my vote Cameron/Clegg an Miliband [plus a Big Gordon Broon Intervenshun] came up with a signed Vow to Scotland.
I would have changed my mind and voted No as I believed their Vow to Scotland.
Two days after that and they have all completely backtracked and lied.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

...I think you'll have read that I am very much less sure than I was in 2014 over whether or not I should get a vote in a future referendum; that today I tend to feel not - but if I did get a vote, then it should not be in the primary decision but somehow used to understand and maybe incorporate the feelings of the Scottish diaspora in the event of a very close vote either way.

But I say that in the context of there being no referendum in the offing, My thinking might change were one to be called - after all - it's my country too.

It is but you chose to move away. Elections around the world are pretty similar, you vote in the country you live in, clearly there are some caveats to this. This is not a uniquely British situation.

If you feel strongly about it then the option to move back is there. If you just feel you ought to get a vote because you have love for the motherland it does not work that way and I would be staggered if that ever changed.

 

[PNWokingham]

I love it when Brexiters start using economic arguments as a reason to keep a union of countries together.

wind your kneck in. I deliberately left out brexit comparisons, as it is is not relevant and a different topic - and i voted remain!

 

[Robster59]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1297305759424958469

Finances a disaster since SNP took power and clueless on currency.

I've been saying a long time that the SNP have been writing cheques they can't cash. In an effort to win the referendum they gave lots of things away to those living in Scotland. (Prescriptions, Hospital parking, tolls, etc.). Now I'm not saying a lot of these things shouldn't be free but they have to be paid for somehow and without oil revenue, Scotland doesn't have the revenue to cover it. I am paying more tax by living up here than I would if I lived in other parts of the UK. But without funding from central Government, Scotland would be in a hell of a state financially.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

It is but you chose to move away. Elections around the world are pretty similar, you vote in the country you live in, clearly there are some caveats to this. This is not a uniquely British situation.

If you feel strongly about it then the option to move back is there. If you just feel you ought to get a vote because you have love for the motherland it does not work that way and I would be staggered if that ever changed.

Remember - I chose to move away as there just weren't the jobs in Scotland in the early-mid 80s of the sort I was looking for (well not that were advertised in New Scientist ). So like generations of Scots before me I left Scotland to where I could get the work. You are correct. If I desperately want a vote then I buy a place in Scotland - which I might well do within the timescales of any further referendum.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

wind your kneck in. I deliberately left out brexit comparisons, as it is is not relevant and a different topic - and i voted remain!

Unfortunately what can't be put aside is the assertion made by the No campaign that Scots had to vote No to guarantee Scotland being part of the EU. And that is where the Brexit cac (it means what you guess it means) hits the fan.

 

[Hobbit]

Obviously this is a hypothetical discussion so your rights are still there. I'm not El Presidente yet ?.

Clearly you/i will always have concerns about our kids but that doesn't give us the right to vote in a country where you no longer live. If my son moves to Australia with work I don't get to vote there in order to help him out. Our kids have to look after themselves, make their own decisions.

Your pension is something you have paid into, that is enshrined. Your vote, imo, is about the here and now. As I've said, losing your vote, you obviously don't for 15 yrs right now, is part of the equation of the move for me.

Churros or sponge cake, not churros and sponge cake ?, swap sponge cake for Dundee cake if you want the analogy for indy ref2.

You seem to be missing or avoiding the point. I do get the right to vote in a country in which I no longer live.

Also, my pension doesn’t enjoy the same protections that yours has. As things currently stand, mine will freeze in 2 years time but wouldn’t freeze if Brexit didn’t happen. Why? I have the benefit of a very decent private pension, but there's many that don’t.

In the last 20 years I paid almost £300k in income tax and NI, and over my working life a whole lot more. I would have happily paid more tax to help those in need. I’m now not an earner and ask the question where’s my return.

I would like to think that my contributions have in some small way benefited the U.K. but would, equally, ask it’s now time to return some of that. If I live another 15 years how about returning a £100k of the far more that was contributed?

We’re getting off track here.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

You seem to be missing or avoiding the point. I do get the right to vote in a country in which I no longer live.

Also, my pension doesn’t enjoy the same protections that yours has. As things currently stand, mine will freeze in 2 years time but wouldn’t freeze if Brexit didn’t happen. Why? I have the benefit of a very decent private pension, but there's many that don’t.

In the last 20 years I paid almost £300k in income tax and NI, and over my working life a whole lot more. I would have happily paid more tax to help those in need. I’m now not an earner and ask the question where’s my return.

I would like to think that my contributions have in some small way benefited the U.K. but would, equally, ask it’s now time to return some of that. If I live another 15 years how about returning a £100k of the far more that was contributed?

We’re getting off track here.

I know you still get to vote, this is largely hypothetical in that I disagree that you should (it started with Scots no longer living in Scotland wanting to vote in Indyref2 but the concept is pretty much the same). I'm making the point contrary to the current rules. It isn't happening, it is just a discussion.

We all know that tax paid, not pensions, pays the here and now. You don't get to keep your proportion of it, it does not get ring faced. You pay your taxes, you benefit whilst you live in that country. If you leave then that is the end of it, pension apart, imo. You move to another country, you apply to vote there. Forget that you can influence the country you left, those days are gone.

You can apply the above to Scotland so we have only veered slightly, perhaps .

I see your side of this, I just don't agree with it. The rules are with you though and as Boris and I are not in the same Whatsapp group I don't think it is going to change soon. If we were there would also be a lot of of things I would be pestering him about before this

 

[Jacko_G]

McGee's crispy rolls - stuff of dreams.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

An analysis and commentary that perhaps highlights why many Unionists would give the vote to Scots living in rUK and elsewhere in rWorld.

http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/63345/1/democraticaudit.com-Scots living overseas or elsewhere in the UK should have been given the right to vote in the independ.pdf

 

[Doon frae Troon]

You should only be able to Vote if you have a Scottish tax number...........that would decimate a fair few of the Conservative and Unionist Party votes.
No representation without taxation

 

[Doon frae Troon]

McGee's crispy rolls - stuff of dreams.

No the well fired ones though, that's Devils food.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

No the well fired ones though, that's Devils food.

I nice softish (not too hard crusty) Scottish morning roll is a thing of rare splendour. The sort our local Newlands Home Bakery would sell...the local Coop ones were good also. Somehow down south the equivalent 'bap' (what a horrid word) just isn't the same - and I don't know why. The hard crusty ones I just can't be bothered with.