The SNIP

[Dando]

Why do you and other broken record types on here choose to ignore the constant comments on 'fundamental change' as covered in the Edinburgh Agreement.
It seems that both the Belfast and Edinburgh agreements are just being ripped up by this Government without even any conversation taking place.

What are you so scared of with Scottish Independence, do you not think the rUK will survive without our input.

I am not scared about anything and I am sure "rUK" will be fine without Scotland.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

In fairness to the SNP there was the promise of “stay in the Union - Stay in the EU”

And Scotland did vote to stay within the Union so when the UK then votes to leave the EU a year or so after you could easily say the situation changes

So Scotland should rightly have a vote - stay in the Union but leave the EU along with that Union or Leave the Union and look to be a part of the EU as an Independent country

I can’t see why the UK government can’t allow that referendum to happen - certainly grounds for it.

 

[ColchesterFC]

Why do you and other broken record types on here choose to ignore the constant comments on 'fundamental change' as covered in the Edinburgh Agreement.
It seems that both the Belfast and Edinburgh agreements are just being ripped up by this Government without even any conversation taking place.

What are you so scared of with Scottish Independence, do you not think the rUK will survive without our input.

But it's not about "fundamental change". That's just the strap line that the SNP are using to try to get another vote. During the election campaign Nicola Sturgeon said that Scotland being taken out of the EU against its will amounted to a fundamental change and therefore a 2nd referendum was justified. The interviewer then said that if Brexit was stopped that would mean there was no fundamental change and it would remove the justification for the referendum. At which point she decided that it wasn't about fundamental change and was actually about Scotland being able to determine its own future.

I'm not against Scottish independence if that is what a majority of Scots want but even with no "fundamental change" the SNP would still be pushing for a 2nd referendum as it is their raison d'etre. If Scotland want more of a voice in UK politics then they have to shelve plans for a 2nd referendum for a certain period of time or they cannot be taken seriously. For example, if the government were to look at possible places to build Navy ships but it would require billions of pounds to spent to get a shipyard ready, why would they consider spending that money on a Scottish port if Scotland were to vote leave and they'd then have to spend it again on another port. They'd be far better spending it on an English or Welsh port, but then there would be complaints from Scots that they aren't being treated fairly.

I'd like Boris to agree to another referendum for Scotland but with conditions attached, such as it must be held within a certain time period and if the vote is to stay as part of the UK then there won't be another vote for 25 years. And then when it comes to campaigning for those that want Scotland to stay in the UK to simply say "We'd like you stay but it's your decision, you vote for what you want to do" and leave it at that. No project fear, no negative campaigning just a simple message and then let the Scots get on and vote.

 

[patricks148]

At the moment I think it would be wise for the SNP to support the Government in their efforts to get a free trade deal with the EU. If the UK can do that then very little will materially change for Scotland's economy and the quest for Indyref2 can be pursued on a logical and rational basis.

If Indyref2 was to proceed too quickly then an independent Scotland could face major issues with the cross-border trade (rUK being the biggest customer by far), currency, defence, air traffic, health, etc.

Waiting would give the SNP time to get their current dire management of Scotland's economy in shape for when/if they every want to join the EU at some future date.

IMO independence benefits are over estimated and an emotionally driven push would land Scotland constrained by massive debt -rushing by the SNP is unnecessarily adding risk.

how would they support the Gov, by just keeping quite no doubt. TM wasn't interested in any other parties help or support, i suspect Boris won't either?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Just an observation but you do realise you often abuse the Prime Minister of the UK... just saying...

Yes I did use a descriptive term that I felt suited - especially as it was based upon fact (that he told porkies to deceive) but have since ceased doing so...

a person falsely claiming to have a special knowledge or skill

 

[drdel]

Not in such an obnoxious manner though.
Some of the anti Scots stuff on here is in very poor form others simply childlike.......must be the brave new world of Boris.

Unfortunately it seems that it is difficult have a sensible debate with you and SILH (in particular) as you become agitated and fire back and blanket accuse those with a contrasting debate of being anti-Scotland -- very, very wrong.

As I've said (from having worked with your Universities and companies on investment/restructuring in Scotland over decades) IMO independence now would be a particular disaster for Scotland. Your FM and Assembly have the authority and it needs to sort out its long term strategy and provide a stable basis for commerce (long term I think independence wrong). At the current time the EU is under huge pressures with the German economy and others in decline and the US/EU tensions are adding to their woes. So Scotland, would I fear, be a matter of getting on the list (Round to it); especially because it would be a net taker and drag on finances. (See Lagarde's inaugural IMF comments)

If your FM, SNPs and Blackford, (in particular) were to play a smarter game and stop jumping on Westminster at every opportunity, that would be a start. With their rhetoric it is hard to see how and why the PM et al would want to have any contact when the likelihood is the details would be leaked and simply distorted as anti-Scotland and this justified another referendum.

The FM and your SNPs have fostered their reputation as simple loud trouble makers: if they wish to be taken seriously they need to be acting with maturity and be serious.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Seriously, do you really think that Scotland being taken out of the EU, against the wishes of 2/3rd of its voters is not a fundamental change.
PS Brexit will not be stopped, it is just the severity of the self harm that is up for discussion now.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

But it's not about "fundamental change". That's just the strap line that the SNP are using to try to get another vote. During the election campaign Nicola Sturgeon said that Scotland being taken out of the EU against its will amounted to a fundamental change and therefore a 2nd referendum was justified. The interviewer then said that if Brexit was stopped that would mean there was no fundamental change and it would remove the justification for the referendum. At which point she decided that it wasn't about fundamental change and was actually about Scotland being able to determine its own future.

I'm not against Scottish independence if that is what a majority of Scots want but even with no "fundamental change" the SNP would still be pushing for a 2nd referendum as it is their raison d'etre. If Scotland want more of a voice in UK politics then they have to shelve plans for a 2nd referendum for a certain period of time or they cannot be taken seriously. For example, if the government were to look at possible places to build Navy ships but it would require billions of pounds to spent to get a shipyard ready, why would they consider spending that money on a Scottish port if Scotland were to vote leave and they'd then have to spend it again on another port. They'd be far better spending it on an English or Welsh port, but then there would be complaints from Scots that they aren't being treated fairly.

I'd like Boris to agree to another referendum for Scotland but with conditions attached, such as it must be held within a certain time period and if the vote is to stay as part of the UK then there won't be another vote for 25 years. And then when it comes to campaigning for those that want Scotland to stay in the UK to simply say "We'd like you stay but it's your decision, you vote for what you want to do" and leave it at that. No project fear, no negative campaigning just a simple message and then let the Scots get on and vote.

Again - Sturgeon is not asking Johnson to agree to the Scottish Government holding another referendum - she is asking that the Scottish Government is given the right and freedom to choose when to have another referendum.

Sturgeon will not trigger one until she is sure she will win. She needs the polls to show quite a lot of converts from No to Yes. That conversion may take quite a while if Johnson engages Sturgeon in the negotiation of the Trade Deal with the EU - and ensures that Scotland comes out of it just as well - if not better - than the rest of the UK. SNP guns spiked - at least for a while.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Unfortunately it seems that it is difficult have a sensible debate without you and SILH as you become agitated and fire back and blanketdly accuse those with a contrasting debate of being anti-Scotland -- very, very wrong.

As I've said from having worked with your Universities and companies restructuring in Scotland over decades IMO independence now would be a particular disaster for Scotland. Your FM and Assembly has the authority and it needs to sort out its long term strategy and provide a stable basis for commerce (long term I think independence also wrong). At the current time the EU is under huge pressures with the German economy and others in decline and the US/EU tensions are adding to their woes. So Scotland, would I fear, be a matter of getting on the list (Round to it); especially because it would be a net taker and drag on finances. (See Lagarde's inaugural IMF comments)

If your FM, SNPs and Blackford, in particular) were to play a smarter game and stop jumping on Westminster at every opportunity, that would be a start. With their rhetoric it is hard to see how and why the PM et al would want to have any contact when the likelihood is the details would be leaked and simply distorted as anti-Scotland and this justified another referendum.

The FM and your SNPs have fostered their reputation as simple loud trouble makers: if they wish to be taken seriously they need to be acting with maturity and be serious.

Sorry - but I have simply been pushing back at abuse levelled at the Scottish First Minister. I point out that this sort of abuse is seized upon by those north of the border who will - and there are many who will - choose to interpret this sort of attitude towards the FM as being indicative of the view of The English as a whole. That is wrong - but that what happens...

I am NOT making any blanket accusation of English being anti-Scottish - in fact I am not accusing ANY English of being anti-Scottish - but there are plenty up north who would take a different view to me.

 

[lobthewedge]

Again - Sturgeon is not asking Johnson to agree to the Scottish Government holding another referendum - she is asking that the Scottish Government is given the right and freedom to choose when to have another referendum.

I think Boris Johnson knows fine well if given the freedom to choose the timing of indyref2, the SNP would have it in the diary as soon as possible. Like I said in a previous post, Sturgeon and the SNP are opportunists and will pounce on a distracted Westminster, and also an ill informed electorate. This is not in the interests of Scotland or the UK, and Boris is entirely justified in telling her that now is not the time.

 

[Hobbit]

Yes I did use a descriptive term that I felt suited - especially as it was based upon fact (that he told porkies to deceive) but have since ceased doing so...

a person falsely claiming to have a special knowledge or skill

You’ve used a lot more than that over quite a long period.

Chatting to a long time friend last. Scottish Unionist And business owner...very bright women. She’d get a lifetime on here for her opinion of Sturgeon, and the damage she’s done to Scottish businesses.

 

[Dando]

Again - Sturgeon is not asking Johnson to agree to the Scottish Government holding another referendum - she is asking that the Scottish Government is given the right and freedom to choose when to have another referendum.

Sturgeon will not trigger one until she is sure she will win. She needs the polls to show quite a lot of converts from No to Yes. That conversion may take quite a while if Johnson engages Sturgeon in the negotiation of the Trade Deal with the EU - and ensures that Scotland comes out of it just as well - if not better - than the rest of the UK. SNP guns spiked - at least for a while.

Why on earth should Scotland come out the eu talks better off than the uk?

 

[drdel]

The 'Fundamental Changes' of FM during 2016 -2019 was not detected as a threat...

https://www.thetimes.co.uk › article › poll-reveals-sharp-fall-in-support-for-i...
7 Dec 2019 - Poll reveals sharp fall in support for Scottish independence ... despite the SNP's election push, an exclusive poll for The Times has revealed. .

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You’ve used a lot more than that over quite a long period.

Chatting to a long time friend last. Scottish Unionist And business owner...very bright women. She’d get a lifetime on here for her opinion of Sturgeon, and the damage she’s done to Scottish businesses.

I have, but I stopped and latterly I believe that I used only a descriptor used by many commentators in the media as being apt.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Why on earth should Scotland come out the eu talks better off than the uk?

I didn't say it should - I said it would help the unionist cause hugely if in some way if it did

So for example that could be in the context of immigration control - where something different than what we could be looking at at the moment would probably be better from a Scottish Government perspective.

Look - I don't know what England thinks on this - and I don't know if anyone actually cares - but I simply suggest that being abusive/aggressive towards, or dismissive of, Sturgeon does not look great to her supporters.

Before you know it the SNP will be organising a mass demonstration in Westminster...of course I jest...

 

[Hobbit]

I didn't say it should - I said it would help the unionist cause hugely if in some way if it did

So for example that could be in the context of immigration control - where something different than what we could be looking at at the moment would probably be better from a Scottish Government perspective.

Look - I don't know what England thinks on this - and I don't know if anyone actually cares - but I simply suggest that being abusive/aggressive towards, or dismissive of, Sturgeon does not look great to her supporters.

Before you know it the SNP will be organising a mass demonstration in Westminster...of course I jest...

It’s a bit of a going round in circles thing. Someone like Doon posts up an anti Westminster anti Boris anti English Wings thing. Someone from England responds in kind and then tribal warfare breaks out.

If you look back through any number of threads you will rarely see one of the spats being started by the English, apart from Stevana... whatever his name is. To a large extent, most people outside of the southeast feel ignored by Westminster. Do they continually rant about Westminster and the southerners?

Too many Scots are taken in by the SNP good Westminster bad brainwashing. Who runs the NHS in Scotland? Who runs education in Scotland? And who does Sturgeon blame? What is Scotland’s deficit...you can find it in the Scottish govt’s own financial report. Who ran up that deficit?

 

[drdel]

It’s a bit of a going round in circles thing. Someone like Doon posts up an anti Westminster anti Boris anti English Wings thing. Someone from England responds in kind and then tribal warfare breaks out.

If you look back through any number of threads you will rarely see one of the spats being started by the English, apart from Stevana... whatever his name is. To a large extent, most people outside of the southeast feel ignored by Westminster. Do they continually rant about Westminster and the southerners?

Too many Scots are taken in by the SNP good Westminster bad brainwashing. Who runs the NHS in Scotland? Who runs education in Scotland? And who does Sturgeon blame? What is Scotland’s deficit...you can find it in the Scottish govt’s own financial report. Who ran up that deficit?

Scotland has had the reins for 12 years but the horse has become detached from the cart of financial prudence - (Joke alert) interesting that the Scottish stereotype is usually characterised as being 'tight'.

 

[lobthewedge]

The decline and near extinction of Labour is due to the SNP initially proving so competent in govt that voters swung behind them in huge numbers, this then led to the majority govt of 2012 that led to indyref in 2014, Labour's behaviour since, basically getting into bed with the Tories at every opportunity has just seen them fall further off the map.

Yes the SNP have benefited, but they caused it positively.

while I accept your opinion I think you underestimate the turn off that labour after Gordon brown was to scottish voters. He was a safe pair of hands, solid dependable and one of there own. When Miliband took over in 2010, I reckon scottish voters saw only a London based metropolitan elite, totally unrelatable to many and they turned to the snp. Corbyn has only compounded this.

 

[HughJars]

while I accept your opinion I think you underestimate the turn off that labour after Gordon brown was to scottish voters. He was a safe pair of hands, solid dependable and one of there own. When Miliband took over in 2010, I reckon scottish voters saw only a London based metropolitan elite, totally unrelatable to many and they turned to the snp. Corbyn has only compounded this.

Don't agree with that at all. Gordon Brown was massively responsible for the 2015 SNP landslide.

 

[HughJars]

she's already had her "once in a generation" vote

What's this?