The SNIP

[woofers]

It is a bigger mandate than Johnsons 'landslide' win for Westminster.
He did not even reach 80% seat share that the SNP managed to.

You seem to have overlooked the fact that the election results are based on first past the post system, whilst referendum results are based on absolute majority of votes cast.
Seat shares are irrelevant.
Fact - the SNP got 45% of the votes cast in the election. If this were replicated in a referendum it’s not enough.
The SNP need votes from the other parties, I accept that, but the SNP votes cast alone do not give a ‘clear mandate’.
Please don’t try to be a politician by bringing in irrelevant arguments.

 

[patricks148]

Don't know anything about Eire and what the EU situation was like at that time etc, so cant comment, but that wasn't really the main point I was making in the post, so a bit of a division. Was taking about when you would want the Indy ref, I think the time would be when you know the trade deal.



I would have agreed that No deal was the most likely outcome, upto Mays time, but think that is now fairly unlike to happen. BJ however is a much more interesting loose cannon and harder to predict in these talks, EU/people don't like that but is not a bad thing for getting a better deal, all IMHO and I am no Boris lover.....

A sensible person would never make Indy kind of decisions, when so many lifes can be affected, without knowing what you are comparing it to.

Ie what the hell is the deal like and does it work for Scotland. You have the Indy ref before then and there is a whole load of unanswer questions.

Just feel SNP just want independence and that a problem for being sensible and taking the proper time to consider your actions and knowing what you are voting for or not voting for.

i think Many Scots in favour of Independance would say they have had 300 years to think about it

 

[patricks148]

You seem to have overlooked the fact that the election results are based on first past the post system, whilst referendum results are based on absolute majority of votes cast.
Seat shares are irrelevant.
Fact - the SNP got 45% of the votes cast in the election. If this were replicated in a referendum it’s not enough.
The SNP need votes from the other parties, I accept that, but the SNP votes cast alone do not give a ‘clear mandate’.
Please don’t try to be a politician by bringing in irrelevant arguments.

but as you say its first past the post of the 59 seats in Scoland the SNP got 48 of them so that alone gives the mandate, thats the majority simple as that

 

[HughJars]

The SNP share of all votes cast in Scotland was 45%.
If a major factor of the SNP campaign was independence how does a 45% share translate as a mandate, or a clear majority for for second referendum ? On the basis of this vote share it would be another ‘loss’.

All through the campaign, "send her a message, no to indyref2". It was the only policy the Tories had, it was in every interview, every leaflet, every street/field sign. Guess what, message was sent.

 

[drdel]

i think Many Scots in favour of Independance would say they have had 300 years to think about it

That's some life expectancy . - if that is a generation and your referendum was in 2014 Nicola has 295 years before the next one

 

[patricks148]

That's some life expectancy . - if that is a generation and your referendum was in 2014 Nicola has 295 years before the next one

another example of the contempt shown to another country, glad you think its funny!

 

[drdel]

another example of the contempt shown to another country, glad you think its funny!

Really unnecessary - sense of humour bypass. I have absolutely nothing against Scotland (I have many business ties, associates and ancestors!). I do sincerely worry that the Scots are being sold a pup by the SNP for the purposes of political dogma and could achieve far more staying in the Union than outside or as a satellite of the EU.

 

[Slab]

When people vote they don’t vote for what’s best for the country they live in, they vote for what’s best for ‘them & theirs’ (& who could blame them) So they vote for what’s best for their family, their kids, their job, their financial situation/prospects... the reality is they care not a jot about the family 40 miles away let alone 400 miles away and what might be best for them. So I totally get that most of you wouldn’t vote for SNP

In return the SNP care not a jot for what trade deals/economic benefits are negotiated for English towns and cities after the UK leaves the EU, they just care for the towns, cities & people they were elected to care about. So why then should they drop the biggest negotiating point they have in the locker just because some of you are saying… ‘Ease off on the Indy talk Nicola, we’ve a lot on just now what with Brexit and all’

It really doesn’t matter what the scale of the deal even is. If Boris decides he wants a few thousand new flags to commemorate Britain’s EU exit and the two factories that can knock them out by Feb are in Gosport & Govan, do I want Caroline Dinenage (Gosport MP) or Nicola Sturgeon negotiating for the contract & who’s holding the stronger hand?

If pushing for a second independence referendum (regardless of the likelihood/probability) gives Scotland’s First Minister a stronger negotiating position with the UK Gov on any discussions than the daughter of Children’s TV legend Fred, then more power to her, she’d be a fool not to use it… wouldn’t she?

 

[patricks148]

Really unnecessary - sense of humour bypass. I have absolutely nothing against Scotland (I have many business ties, associates and ancestors!). I do sincerely worry that the Scots are being sold a pup by the SNP for the purposes of political dogma and could achieve far more staying in the Union than outside or as a satellite of the EU.

if you want unessasary, i would say the constant reference of Scotlands Fm as Krankie and the like, not to mention being told England should get a say on its future and whats best for Scotland... forgive me for having a sense of Humour bypass as you call it

 

[drdel]

if you want unessasary, i would say the constant reference of Scotlands Fm as Krankie and the like, not to mention being told England should get a say on its future and whats best for Scotland... forgive me for having a sense of Humour bypass as you call it

But never by me - your chose to heighten the rhetoric by accusing me of having "contempt". you'll catch more wasps with honey than vinegar

For the record I said we should all get a say in the Union's future - you have a devolved Assembly in which England's voters have no say and IMO that's fine.

 

[patricks148]

But never by me - your chose to heighten the rhetoric by accusing me of having "contempt". you'll catch more wasps with honey than vinegar

For the record I said we should all get a say in the Union's future - you have a devolved Assembly in which England's voters have no say and IMO that's fine.

i expect all those calling her Krankie would say the same, have a good look at what you and others regularly post about Scotland, vinegar as you would call it.

you do its called Westminster... with Scotland being a small country we get little or no say in it

 

[stefanovic]

Quote from the great leader: Scotland "cannot be imprisoned in the union against its will by the UK government".
But hold on. Does the SNP speak for all of Scotland? Apparently they claim to represent every man, woman and child up there.
Did it just do well in the election in the face of not much opposition from the likes of the Labour Party?
How do they know what the final Brexit deal will be? It could be to their advantage.
Scots found that the original union with England and Wales gave them just what they were looking for. Have they forgotten that?

 

[HughJars]

Quote from the great leader: Scotland "cannot be imprisoned in the union against its will by the UK government".
But hold on. Does the SNP speak for all of Scotland? Apparently they claim to represent every man, woman and child up there.

It's how it works, just a the Tories are claiming they speak for everyone on Brexit (smaller mandate btw)

Did it just do well in the election in the face of not much opposition from the likes of the Labour Party?

Yes that's it, every election since 2010, Holyrood, UK, council, EU, every one the SNP have destroyed the opposition, so you're correct, it's all down to Labour

How do they know what the final Brexit deal will be? It could be to their advantage.

We didn't vote for Brexit, the best deal is staying in, every projection has shown that, but worse, the worst hit area of the UK will be....Scotland.

Scots found that the original union with England and Wales gave them just what they were looking for. Have they forgotten that?

You'll have to remind us, because I have no idea what this refers to?

 

[stefanovic]

Let's say the UK leaves the EU sometime in 2020 with a trade deal.
Are you are saying that is no good whatever it is and the SNP will either insist on Indyref2 or threaten UDI?
If successful will they want to very fast track themselves back into the EU as a full member?
So how much might they be expected to pay for membership?
Are they prepared to join the Eurozone?
Will they expect free trade with rUK?
So many known unknowns here.

 

[HughJars]

Let's say the UK leaves the EU sometime in 2020 with a trade deal.
Are you are saying that is no good whatever it is and the SNP will either insist on Indyref2 or threaten UDI?
If successful will they want to very fast track themselves back into the EU as a full member?
So how much might they be expected to pay for membership?
Are they prepared to join the Eurozone?
Will they expect free trade with rUK?
So many known unknowns here.

You're right, because right now, right this minute, they should have the answer to all of these, whereas Boris & Co have had 3.5 years to set something up, and they're not even past a withdrawal agreement yet! It doesn;t actually matter what the answer to any of those questions are, Yoons will say it's wrong anyway.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Yup this. Fed up of that *** in particular.

I suspect that most south of the border have little appreciation of the popularity of Sturgeon among a large part of the Scottish electorate and the soon-to-be electorate (14-17yr olds) - recognising of course that she is not universally popular by a long stretch. And likewise how toxic the personality and politics of Johnson and his ilk are for that same group.

 

[patricks148]

Let's say the UK leaves the EU sometime in 2020 with a trade deal.
Are you are saying that is no good whatever it is and the SNP will either insist on Indyref2 or threaten UDI?
If successful will they want to very fast track themselves back into the EU as a full member?
So how much might they be expected to pay for membership?
Are they prepared to join the Eurozone?
Will they expect free trade with rUK?
So many known unknowns here.

its OK Nicola, can just say "get UKxit done" and we will be happy with that after all you were

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

It's how it works, just a the Tories are claiming they speak for everyone on Brexit (smaller mandate btw)


Yes that's it, every election since 2010, Holyrood, UK, council, EU, every one the SNP have destroyed the opposition, so you're correct, it's all down to Labour

We didn't vote for Brexit, the best deal is staying in, every projection has shown that, but worse, the worst hit area of the UK will be....Scotland.


You'll have to remind us, because I have no idea what this refers to?

The Scottish wealthy (and government) supported the Union of Parliaments to be bailed-out following the financially disastrous Darien Scheme of the 1690s (sounds familiar doesn't it). A cautionary tale for the future...just as well Scotland doesn't have mozzies and malaria - though the midges...

 

[stefanovic]

Actually, I'm quite happy for Scotland to go. It is a country divided by religious bigotry.
Let them make up the rules as they go along.
Let them deceive each other with economic forecasts about how great Scotland will be. Don't tell them that economics is in no way a science.
Don't expect us to bail out one of their banks again.
Leave that to the EU, who will also be expected to throw buckets of money into Scotland.
Let the EU control Scotland's immigration policy.

If Indyref2 is not successful then how soon would the SNP start talking about Indyref3?
The very next day.

 

[funkycoldmedina]

IMO 'high and dry' as I wonder how long, after achieving independence, these 'professionals' would stay when the economic realities hit home and Tourism becomes the mainstay of employment and economy.

You're always one of the more considered posters on here but I felt compelled to reply to this message. I'm an Englishman in Scotland and my reasons for voting for independence tie in with this way of thinking. The trade unions followed by Thatcher (just to be apolotical about the reasons) ripped the guts out of regions such as Scotland, North England etc. They used to be the work horse of the UK and are now the benefit vacuum's. We've had 40 years of government of 2 different hues in this time who have failed these regions consistently. The rail, road and air system linking these areas and the rest of the world together are pathetic and if you think that Scotland would be a tourism based economy then the fault lies squarely at Westminster's door. So unless there's a genuine co-ordinated plan and not just PR guff about Northern powerhouse then I'm all for trying a different way because 40 years is a long time to have made big inroads into these issues.