The SNIP

[Jacko_G]

there was a snp mp on the radio last night happily avioding the question of how a hard border would be implemented once they joined the EU ?

Hard borders are not implemented on any of Switzerland's five borders so it's really a red herring which has been made into a big issue.

The renewables industry is absolutely huge in Scotland and will continue to grow.

 

[stefanovic]

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...0C95BCFB3279598B89290C95BCFB32795&FORM=VDQVAP

But BC Airways flew from Gatwick with mainly English hostesses.

I guess the Scots could be wound up by certain stereotypes. Their bank notes don't work too well south of the border might be one reason they want independence.
https://www.scotsman.com/heritage/10-annoying-stereotypes-that-every-scottish-person-hates-1-4973631

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I guess that is a question for your Assembly who have not delivered on their promises and failed on fiscal management...

Independence would need to address.
The Barnet systems give you 20% more per capita. So that's a 'bailout' needed from somewhere - who.
Even with UK support the deficit is rising.
Your Health service is supported by mostly agency staff at high costs.
Kids are under performing in your Schools
Scotland has no currency controls so relies on the Bank of England and sterling to provide stability.
The SNP's case was based on Oil revenues at $150/barrel - its now $65!
etc, etc.

Just for devilment I'll mention that Scotland's fiscal management does not seem to have evolved since the Scottish Darien Scheme failed and needed cash injection.Then there is the fact that you could not continually use Westminster as a scapegoat.[/QUOTE

Five of your points show how Scotland is performing under Westminster's warped financial control, one is wrong and another is plain stoopid.
Want to have another try?
I shall give you a wee help Scotland's Tax returns to Westminster.

 

[woofers]

The SNP share of all votes cast in Scotland was 45%.
If a major factor of the SNP campaign was independence how does a 45% share translate as a mandate, or a clear majority for for second referendum ? On the basis of this vote share it would be another ‘loss’.

 

[USER1999]

If there was a 2nd referendum, and independance lost, would it disappear for a generation, (25 years minimum), or re appear next year, and the year after, and so on? I accept the EU issue has changed things somewhat, and so maybe, maybe there could be extenuating circumstances, but really, what would cause a definative result, leave, or stay.

 

[Slab]

precisely my point, everyone’s blood is up and the country is so divided at the moment, do you really think another referendum this year is the answer?

What approach do you think the SNP should take then re indy2? (there’s really not that many options)

1. OK folks it’s a bit soon to be talking about indy2 etc so let’s just calm down and let the UK government lead us out of Europe, if Boris wants our help/advice/input on the exit and internal negotiations I’m sure he’ll ask for it despite his party'sstanding in this country and doubtless Scotland will be as strongly represented as it ought to be
2. Look folks regardless of whether we think there’s any reality of it happening anytime soon we must still push for Indy2 for several reasons but not least because we’re coming out of Europe and Boris must be required to ask for our help/advice/input because unless we’re in a position of some strength he sure as hell won’t bother asking us about it

What would you do if you were in her shoes? Whether you agree or not the SNP must raise the matter. It’s not a tough one to figure out

 

[Slab]

Would it not be better for Scotland to wait for the outcome of the trade talks with the EU before pushing for another independence vote? Once they know the details of the agreement they will then be able to look at the full financial impact of independence/joining the EU with regards to any tariffs that might have to be enforced on their exports to rUK and can make their case accordingly. If the trade deal doesn't cover services, which is one of Scotland's biggest exports to rUK, then that could have an impact on finances.

See my post above that illustrates why they must pursue indy just to get the best EU Exit deal they can for the people living in Scotland

Those trade talks will hold the devil in the detail and the Scottish government is doing absolutely the right play to negotiate from a better position for the people/country (regardless of whether they think a second referendum will happen in the next 10 years, asking for indy2 is just a pretty big bargaining chip)

 

[Slab]

So Wee Krankie is willing to spend in excess of £15m to have a new vote when Sotland has a humungous deficit and will be unable to assure the population of its future given that the benefits/problems of leaving the EU will not be known - surely she should wait for a while?

How do you reckon that would be announced?

edit
Why are some pretty sensible posters completely unable to see that any SNP request for a second independence referendum has 10% to do with a second independence referendum & 90% to do with Britain’s exit from the EU

 

[Dando]

If there was a 2nd referendum, and independance lost, would it disappear for a generation, (25 years minimum), or re appear next year, and the year after, and so on? I accept the EU issue has changed things somewhat, and so maybe, maybe there could be extenuating circumstances, but really, what would cause a definative result, leave, or stay.

Krankie would just carry on moaning about it and demanding another vote until she got her way

 

[patricks148]

the more the attutde of the sort demonstrated on here, the more in Scoland will be in favour of independance.

Most of the Guys i play with at Nairn were all in favour of staying in the UK, these guys all tended to be middle class ex professionals, Bankers, Doctors, dentists, Engineers and the like.. most are now in favour of Independance.. leaving the EU is the game changer.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

the more the attutde of the sort demonstrated on here, the more in Scoland will be in favour of independance.

Most of the Guys i play with at Nairn were all in favour of staying in the UK, these guys all tended to be middle class ex professionals, Bankers, Doctors, dentists, Engineers and the like.. most are now in favour of Independance.. leaving the EU is the game changer.

And so the thinking seems to go that if Sturgeon has a mandate to hold Indyref2, then Johnson has to keep her engaged during the Exit Deal negotiations. Because he will know that if he goes Hard (sorry) - or exits with no deal agreed - then some Scots currently minded to say 'No' - will move to 'Yes'. And when the polls tell Sturgeon that 'Yes' has reached the threshold she is confident would return a 'Yes' result- she will call the referendum.

If Johnson manages to negotiate a 'soft' Exit Deal then those same Scots voters could well stay 'No' - and that threshold will not be reached and Sturgeon won't make the call - well not until the pressure on her by the hardline/absolutist Nationalists in her party demand it.

My bro is a senior and well-off Oil Industry Civil Engineer - like your mates - and he is very pro-Indy. If he had any doubts (and he might have had a few) then having Johnson as PM has absolutely set his views in concrete. Not sure that those south of the border appreciate the amount of 'love' felt for Johnson amongst many Scots.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

the more the attutde of the sort demonstrated on here, the more in Scoland will be in favour of independance.

Most of the Guys i play with at Nairn were all in favour of staying in the UK, these guys all tended to be middle class ex professionals, Bankers, Doctors, dentists, Engineers and the like.. most are now in favour of Independance.. leaving the EU is the game changer.

Same here I have professional friends and neighbours who were staunch Tories now Independence supporters.
Nicola playing a blinder at the mo, The more a right wing Westminster government say bugger off the greater her support will build.
If Scots Labour move to Independence then we are home and dry.

 

[Deleted member 21258]

Get what Slab is saying, it part of the making us important and don't forget us in the leaving & deals etc.outlook.

I could understand if SNP were saying 'We are writing now, to get the power to hold a Indy within say 3 of leaving the EU/deal being agreed'. Something that is more likely to be agreed to.

Any sensible person would want to see the form that Brexit will take and lets not kid ourselves the rest of the UK is a far bigger market to Scotland than EU.

Don't bite off your nose to spite your face, comes to mind tbh.

 

[User62651]

Get what Slab is saying, it part of the making us important and don't forget us in the leaving & deals etc.outlook.

I could understand if SNP were saying 'We are writing now, to get the power to hold a Indy within say 3 of leaving the EU/deal being agreed'. Something that is more likely to be agreed to.

Any sensible person would want to see the form that Brexit will take and lets not kid ourselves the rest of the UK is a far bigger market to Scotland than EU.

Don't bite off your nose to spite your face, comes to mind tbh.

Could say same about Eire but there's not many there who regret getting independence or are desperate to come under Westminster/Tory control.

 

[drdel]

Same here I have professional friends and neighbours who were staunch Tories now Independence supporters.
Nicola playing a blinder at the mo, The more a right wing Westminster government say bugger off the greater her support will build.
If Scots Labour move to Independence then we are home and dry.

IMO 'high and dry' as I wonder how long, after achieving independence, these 'professionals' would stay when the economic realities hit home and Tourism becomes the mainstay of employment and economy.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

The SNP share of all votes cast in Scotland was 45%.
If a major factor of the SNP campaign was independence how does a 45% share translate as a mandate, or a clear majority for for second referendum ? On the basis of this vote share it would be another ‘loss’.

It is a bigger mandate than Johnsons 'landslide' win for Westminster.
He did not even reach 80% seat share that the SNP managed to.

 

[patricks148]

Get what Slab is saying, it part of the making us important and don't forget us in the leaving & deals etc.outlook.

I could understand if SNP were saying 'We are writing now, to get the power to hold a Indy within say 3 of leaving the EU/deal being agreed'. Something that is more likely to be agreed to.

Any sensible person would want to see the form that Brexit will take and lets not kid ourselves the rest of the UK is a far bigger market to Scotland than EU.

Don't bite off your nose to spite your face, comes to mind tbh.

not sure why you would wait when its quite clear a No deal appears to be the plan all along.

 

[Slab]

Get what Slab is saying, it part of the making us important and don't forget us in the leaving & deals etc.outlook.

I could understand if SNP were saying 'We are writing now, to get the power to hold a Indy within say 3 of leaving the EU/deal being agreed'. Something that is more likely to be agreed to.

Any sensible person would want to see the form that Brexit will take and lets not kid ourselves the rest of the UK is a far bigger market to Scotland than EU.

Don't bite off your nose to spite your face, comes to mind tbh.

Yup absolutely, whatever political slant one has you'd have to admit the SNP have made phenomenal political progress in the last few decades. If they do nothing else (from their perspective) they have every right to be very proud about the changes they have brought about in Scotland’s political landscape even if they never achieve full independence (which they know could well be the reality so what is the least worst case scenario for the SNP to do in the next decade or two?)


Let’s just imagine that as part of post EU Britain a new port expansion is to be established (or any one of the hundred thousand other decisions that Britain’s exit from the EU will necessitate) and just for kicks let’s just say this billion pound investment could either be set up in Southport or Stranraer as the two finalists

Whether it ‘wins’ or not is Stranraer more or less likely to be chosen if Scotland’s First Minister is able to shout a bit louder and with a bit more importance round Boris’s Post-EU negotiation table than the councillors/MP from Southport simply because she has the Indy bargaining chip in her hand?
Maybe it’s only at this point of agreeing all these hundreds/thousands of decisions that in return its right & proper for her to concede and agree to defer pushing for further referendums on indy for xx years in exchange for more favourable post-EU trade deals/terms for Scotland within the framework of the UK than she might otherwise have been able to secure?

Some of the posts seem to be suggesting the best policy for her right now as Scotlands political and economic leader with Brexit looming is that she just shuts her mouth and waits for the call from Boris to see what crumbs Scotland has been ‘allocated’ post EU. How ridiculous would that be! It’d be pure political suicide, she and her party would surely be dumped at the next elections as incompetent & not fit to govern (that’s maybe just what some of you want especially the folks in Southport)

You guys opposed to her brining up Indy2, would you seriously just kowtow in her position? If so please don’t take any job that has responsibilities for the financial implications for those under your care

 

[Doon frae Troon]

IMO 'high and dry' as I wonder how long, after achieving independence, these 'professionals' would stay when the economic realities hit home and Tourism becomes the mainstay of employment and economy.

Do you know anything at all about Scotland [other than what you read in the Unionist press]

 

[Deleted member 21258]

Could say same about Eire but there's not many there who regret getting independence or are desperate to come under Westminster/Tory control.

Don't know anything about Eire and what the EU situation was like at that time etc, so cant comment, but that wasn't really the main point I was making in the post, so a bit of a division. Was taking about when you would want the Indy ref, I think the time would be when you know the trade deal.

not sure why you would wait when its quite clear a No deal appears to be the plan all along.

I would have agreed that No deal was the most likely outcome, upto Mays time, but think that is now fairly unlike to happen. BJ however is a much more interesting loose cannon and harder to predict in these talks, EU/people don't like that but is not a bad thing for getting a better deal, all IMHO and I am no Boris lover.....

A sensible person would never make Indy kind of decisions, when so many lifes can be affected, without knowing what you are comparing it to.

Ie what the hell is the deal like and does it work for Scotland. You have the Indy ref before then and there is a whole load of unanswer questions.

Just feel SNP just want independence and that a problem for being sensible and taking the proper time to consider your actions and knowing what you are voting for or not voting for.