The great drive for dough putt for show debate thread.

[sunshine]

At my course if a player could only hit it a max of 200 yards off the tee you would be left with the following yardages to the middle of the green. This is obviously ignoring any wind which is significant where I play, or elevation which is only really a factor on a few holes.

Also, we need to take into consideration that if someone is maxed out at 200 off the tee, they will more than like struggle to hit it 190 off the deck. Even assuming they find the centre of every fairway with every tee shot. There is probably 6 holes they aren’t getting to in 2. And others that are borderline. There is a couple that will require a wood or long iron and only one of the par 3s will be comfortable. One is 197 uphill so they aren’t reaching that and the others around 170.

155
197
336*
207
186
325*
236
172
357*
104
189
190
252
357*

* denotes par 5

One would need the best short game on the planet to attain a low single figure handicap being so short off the tee.

But but but… drive for show putt for dough

 

[sunshine]

How's your handicap doing, hitting it far enough to be single figures yet?

Pretty easy to get to single figures at a short easy course.

 

[D-S]

Not sure if this has been mentioned in this thread, but it seems to have been inferred, so if you hit it a very long way then by definition you should be off single figures at least?

 

[Wabinez]

Not sure if this has been mentioned in this thread, but it seems to have been inferred, so if you hit it a very long way then by definition you should be off single figures at least?

I would say your ceiling is a lot, lot higher if you hit it a long way, rather than you ‘should’ be off single figures. The game becomes a lot easier if you can hit it a long way (with relative control…say, 80 yard dispersion left to right)

 

[CountLippe]

Yeah, there have been two things running in parallel here.
There's the tour player restricted to 200 yards
and the response to "You will not reach low singles if you only hit it 200yds " that was such an extremely upsetting statement for someone to read.

I used to play with an ex tour pro, who retired because of a bad accident, and subsequently struggled to hit the ball more than 150 yards. On a good day he would get it round in 4 or 5 over due to being elite from within 100 yards. He still struck the ball pure but simply couldn't generate speed. Essentially losing circa 100yards off the tee had cost him over 10 shots a round.

 

[Springveldt]

Have a word with your mate. I'm quite happy to have a proper discussion but I'm getting a bit fed up with his constant ill-informed nonsense.

To be honest, plenty of people have now shown you data from millions of shots and thousands upon thousands of golfers that you are refusing to accept based on a few outliers from your experience. If anything, you are the one that is ill-informed now.

With all your references to seniors I suspect you are an older golfer who is kind of stuck in his ways and is refusing to accept new data. Can't teach an old dog new tricks kind of thing. A lot of the people you reference are still low handicap/scratch/plus guys in their advancing age so I'm betting they have been exceptional golfers for the past 40 years or so, you really can't be using them as examples compared to the general mid-handicap golfer.

I'm amazed people still argue this tbh. Everything shows that gaining length is the most efficient way to make large improvements to your handicap. Shot Scope makes that crystal clear to me when I check my strokes gained against a scratch player or against a 20 handicapper. Biggest gains are off the tee and approaches from 150-200 yards. Having more length helps massively in both those situations.

 

[Springveldt]

Not sure if this has been mentioned in this thread, but it seems to have been inferred, so if you hit it a very long way then by definition you should be off single figures at least?

No as obviously you need more than that to your game but you have far more potential to get to low single figures or even better than someone that can only hit it 200 off the tee.

It's the reason why most kids at college or high school in the US are now taught to swing as fast as they can. Even guys like Mark Crossfield on YouTube have accepted the fact and he said he wishes he had been taught to swing fast as younger rather than control and he is someone who used to bang on about being accurate off the tee was better than hitting it a long way.

 

[Neilds]

How about this for a compromise - and then we can close the thread:
For younger golfers, starting out - If they can get more length of the tee it will help them get to a lower handicap, providing the extra length doesn't compromise accuracy (too much)
For older, less athletic golfers (like myself) who haven't got the ability or athleticism to gain more yards off the tee, improving the putting will get their handicap down - but probably not to the level of the younger golfer and they will have to also improve their short game.

 

[BiMGuy]

How about this for a compromise - and then we can close the thread:
For younger golfers, starting out - If they can get more length of the tee it will help them get to a lower handicap, providing the extra length doesn't compromise accuracy (too much)
For older, less athletic golfers (like myself) who haven't got the ability or athleticism to gain more yards off the tee, improving the putting will get their handicap down - but probably not to the level of the younger golfer and they will have to also improve their short game.

If your putting is reasonable already, assuming you aren’t taking 40 putts per round. How do you improve it enough over the long term to lower your HI without improving somewhere else?

I get it if you are a beginner and 3 putting 5 or 6 times per round and struggle from 3 or 4 feet and want to get to from a high HI to a mid HI.

Once you get to a decent level the gains putting are marginal.

 

[Backsticks]

I think control over distance had merit in the days of wooden woods . On two counts. It was harder to hit one well. The sweetspot was smaller and forgiveness much less than the modern driver of the last 20 years. Hitting with precision to get the best distance scope from one of those clubs restrained out and out speed.
Secondly, due to ball developpement and the distance we can all hit 460cc Ti drivers, the game has lengthened. The tee to green game has stretched out. Making distance a greater discriminator. This is the element the authorities are concerned about, and I share it.

 

[Backsticks]

How about this for a compromise - and then we can close the thread:
For younger golfers, starting out - If they can get more length of the tee it will help them get to a lower handicap, providing the extra length doesn't compromise accuracy (too much)
For older, less athletic golfers (like myself) who haven't got the ability or athleticism to gain more yards off the tee, improving the putting will get their handicap down - but probably not to the level of the younger golfer and they will have to also improve their short game.

There is (again coloured by old wooden era truths, and to some extent instinct) an assumption that distance and accuracy are a trade off. It has a certain resonance of truth. But is not the case. Faster club speed is also straighter. Head speed is a win win, not a trade off.

 

[Orikoru]

There are many ways to skin a cat in golf. Looking at my game now, I think if I hit more greens in regulation, my handicap would be lower. But you could also reasonably suggest that if my drives were 15 yards longer, I would subsequently hit more greens because I'd be hitting a club or two less every time. I just have work out whether it's easier to add distance to my drives or to strike my mid and long irons better!

Also agree with @BiMGuy that if you're hitting 30-32 putts around there's only very limited improvement to be had there. I don't think it's sustainable to expect to only hit 25-27 putts around, unless you miss most of the greens and your short game is mustard.

 

[D-S]

Also agree with @BiMGuy that if you're hitting 30-32 putts around there's only very limited improvement to be had there. I don't think it's sustainable to expect to only hit 25-27 putts around, unless you miss most of the greens and your short game is mustard.

I think your last sentence is key for improvement - the best way of holing more putts is by chipping it closer on the 9 or more greens you will miss in the round. This is also one of the best ways (dare I say more important than 20 yards off the tee) of reducing scores of normal handicap golfers

 

[Orikoru]

I think your last sentence is key for improvement - the best way of holing more putts is by chipping it closer on the 9 or more greens you will miss in the round. This is also one of the best ways (dare I say more important than 20 yards off the tee) of reducing scores of normal handicap golfers

Hard to say it's more important, but I'd certainly say it's more achievable. It's easy for me to say 15 yards longer drives would see me a lower handicap, and I do believe that, but it's wishful thinking as I'm not likely to put in enough work that it no doubt takes to increase my swing speed by that amount without starting to lose balls right and left. Whereas short game is something we can all practise, even during our rounds.

 

[Jason.H]

I dont worry too much about stats. For instance an average golfer could have low puts per round because he misses most greens which could result in a fair few 1 putts. And then believes his putting is on par with a scratch golfer. Sure stats average out over many rounds but for me the scorecard is the main thing. I know my weaknesses and that’s where I focus on improving.

 

[Backsticks]

Total putts is not really that useful. As noted, can mask a lot of other issues. Putting strokes gained is the useful one.

 

[Steve Wilkes]

Total putts is not really that useful. As noted, can mask a lot of other issues. Putting strokes gained is the useful one.

So true, I averaged 29.1 putts per round last year on 120 rounds, which on paper looks great, but the two main courses I play have relatively smallish greens, so there's a fair few up and down from close by or the fringe

 

[Imurg]

Hard to say it's more important, but I'd certainly say it's more achievable. It's easy for me to say 15 yards longer drives would see me a lower handicap, and I do believe that, but it's wishful thinking as I'm not likely to put in enough work that it no doubt takes to increase my swing speed by that amount without starting to lose balls right and left. Whereas short game is something we can all practise, even during our rounds.

CVG is an example of this.
Steady 200 off the tee, can't reach most par 4s in 2 unless it's the middle of summer, has a variable short game but, and he's the first to admit it, if he could putt he'd be dangerous.
He must lose 7 or 8 shots per round to poor putting..giving him an extra 20 yards off the tee won't make a difference to him as he'll still leave his first putt 6 feet short or 5 feet long and miss the next..almost every time...frustrating watch.

 

[DanFST]

I can hit the ball a long way. Would trade it to be a better putter.

 

[Orikoru]

I'm a mediocre putter. Would trade it to hit the ball a long way!