The great drive for dough putt for show debate thread.

[Voyager EMH]

I hit it a decent distance for an older geezer. Several younger chaps I play with outdrive me regularly, but have a higher handicap.
A much smaller number that outdrive regularly have a lower handicap.

But, "Drive for show and putt for dough" is not about these differences - I've said it over-and-over - it is about winning (dough) on the day - not longer term improvements to your game.

 

[Deleted member 31467]

To be honest, plenty of people have now shown you data from millions of shots and thousands upon thousands of golfers that you are refusing to accept based on a few outliers from your experience. If anything, you are the one that is ill-informed now.

With all your references to seniors I suspect you are an older golfer who is kind of stuck in his ways and is refusing to accept new data. Can't teach an old dog new tricks kind of thing. A lot of the people you reference are still low handicap/scratch/plus guys in their advancing age so I'm betting they have been exceptional golfers for the past 40 years or so, you really can't be using them as examples compared to the general mid-handicap golfer.

I'm amazed people still argue this tbh. Everything shows that gaining length is the most efficient way to make large improvements to your handicap. Shot Scope makes that crystal clear to me when I check my strokes gained against a scratch player or against a 20 handicapper. Biggest gains are off the tee and approaches from 150-200 yards. Having more length helps massively in both those situations.

I agree with a lot of what you have said above however this thread was started on the back of a comment by one poster who claims that the ONLY way to lower your handicap is to hit the ball further. Simply not true. Distance is an asset, nobody disagrees with that but it is also useless without control. Around my course, go offline by a few yards and you are in deep heather. The only shot from there is a wedge back to the fairway. No advantage in that. Those that keep the ball in play and have good short games/putting always score better on that type of course.
There was a great example in the Players last night. McIlroy missed the fairway on his first hole, no control on his 2nd shot which also went into the rough. Again no control and he missed the green into a bunker and walked off with a double. Even the best can do it.

But you are right, people in this thread will not change their minds so I won't be discussing any further. I'm happy to hit the ball moderate distances and have a much lower handicap than the bombers

 

[Deleted member 29109]

Who said the ONLY way to lower one’s handicap is through distance?

 

[Backsticks]

this thread was started on the back of a comment by one poster who claims that the ONLY way to lower your handicap is to hit the ball further.

Where are those claims exactly ?

 

[Golfnut1957]

Sam Torrence said about his father Bob, that he would always teach a young golfer to hit it hard and far, and deal with accuracy once distance had been achieved.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Sam Torrence said about his father Bob, that he would always teach a young golfer to hit it hard and far, and deal with accuracy once distance had been achieved.

Ahead of his time. This is very much the current way, both for golf and cricket now.

 

[Deleted member 25575]

Ahead of his time. This is very much the current way, both for golf and cricket now.

Are you suggesting Boycott wouldn’t get in the current England test team?????

 

[TigerTime]

My current strokes gained status after 12 rounds in 2023 against a scratch golfer; bear in mind I am currently a 16 index (although have not submitted a score since Oct and have been having lessons sporadically through winter)
Tee shots: -6.00
Approaches: -6.05
Short Game: +0.25
Putting: -0.95

Now the reason my tee shots and approaches are poor compared to a scratch player is simply because my tee shots are not far enough up the hole. It's not an accuracy issue. I am leaving myself with longer shots into the green, therefore the longer clubs which are more difficult to hit which in turn then affects my approach play into greens. That could also be rectified to an lesser extent by changing my set up and having a 4/5 wood and maybe a 7 wood instead of a 4hyb and a 5/6iron but the main issue is distance. I carry the driver around 210-220 average with mixed ball striking. If I train for a bit of speed and I then after a bit of work can carry the driver 230-240 that simply changes my game massively and my handicap will drop quicker than a splash ball at Sawgrass.

I am a decent putter and have a good short game especially for my handicap but putting this year hasn't been great, but I am putting that down to the conditions and the fact I haven't played in any competitions yet. I tend to take my putting more serious in comps so this is normal for me. Put it simply, if I am 20 yards further off the tee, I leave myself 1/2/3 clubs shorter in depending on conditions on the day, and much easier clubs to strike, therefore I am hitting more greens and with my putting being good my scores will be lower.

It's really not rocket science.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Are you suggesting Boycott wouldn’t get in the current England test team?????

Geoffrey's forward defensive seems to be a thing of the past. The two styles are certainly very contrasting

 

[sunshine]

I hit it a decent distance for an older geezer. Several younger chaps I play with outdrive me regularly, but have a higher handicap.
A much smaller number that outdrive regularly have a lower handicap.

But, "Drive for show and putt for dough" is not about these differences - I've said it over-and-over - it is about winning (dough) on the day - not longer term improvements to your game.

Agreed. But the short hitters latch on to this mantra and repeat it ad infinitum without actually thinking about what it really means.

 

[sunshine]

I agree with a lot of what you have said above however this thread was started on the back of a comment by one poster who claims that the ONLY way to lower your handicap is to hit the ball further. Simply not true. Distance is an asset, nobody disagrees with that but it is also useless without control. Around my course, go offline by a few yards and you are in deep heather. The only shot from there is a wedge back to the fairway. No advantage in that. Those that keep the ball in play and have good short games/putting always score better on that type of course.
There was a great example in the Players last night. McIlroy missed the fairway on his first hole, no control on his 2nd shot which also went into the rough. Again no control and he missed the green into a bunker and walked off with a double. Even the best can do it.

But you are right, people in this thread will not change their minds so I won't be discussing any further. I'm happy to hit the ball moderate distances and have a much lower handicap than the bombers

A short hitter who only knocks it 200 yards will struggle to break 90 off the back tees at Sawgrass, even if they hit it straight and have a great short game. Another terrible example to add to your long list on this thread

Playing off scratch at a pitch and putt course is great for the ego, but doesn’t equate to scratch at a championship course.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

I agree with a lot of what you have said above however this thread was started on the back of a comment by one poster who claims that the ONLY way to lower your handicap is to hit the ball further. Simply not true. Distance is an asset, nobody disagrees with that but it is also useless without control. Around my course, go offline by a few yards and you are in deep heather. The only shot from there is a wedge back to the fairway. No advantage in that. Those that keep the ball in play and have good short games/putting always score better on that type of course.
There was a great example in the Players last night. McIlroy missed the fairway on his first hole, no control on his 2nd shot which also went into the rough. Again no control and he missed the green into a bunker and walked off with a double. Even the best can do it.

But you are right, people in this thread will not change their minds so I won't be discussing any further. I'm happy to hit the ball moderate distances and have a much lower handicap than the bombers

Where do you play?

My old course was only 6080 yards from the back tees, and firm with small greens. So being a short but accurate player I could score well and got down to 5.

I always thought putting was the reason I didn’t get lower. I now know it was simply because I didn’t hit the ball far enough.

I was a late starter to golf, and whist the pro at the club I joined was a nice enough bloke. I was unfortunate that he taught me slow and steady is best.

I could never understand why the lads I played with shot lower scores more often than I did. My short game and putting was every bit as good as the scratch players. The annoying thing is. It was plainly obvious looking back. They all hit the ball much further than I did. All the par 5s were easily reachable to them, the long par 4s were mid irons, whereas I was hitting woods and long irons. So, despite hitting it in the fairway more often than just about anyone I’ve ever played with. I wasn’t close enough to the hole to take advantage.

 

[Deleted member 31467]

Where do you play?

My old course was only 6080 yards from the back tees, and firm with small greens. So being a short but accurate player I could score well and got down to 5.

I always thought putting was the reason I didn’t get lower. I now know it was simply because I didn’t hit the ball far enough.

I was a late starter to golf, and whist the pro at the club I joined was a nice enough bloke. I was unfortunate that he taught me slow and steady is best.

I could never understand why the lads I played with shot lower scores more often than I did. My short game and putting was every bit as good as the scratch players. The annoying thing is. It was plainly obvious looking back. They all hit the ball much further than I did. All the par 5s were easily reachable to them, the long par 4s were mid irons, whereas I was hitting woods and long irons. So, despite hitting it in the fairway more often than just about anyone I’ve ever played with. I wasn’t close enough to the hole to take advantage.

6400 yards Par 70 CR 71.5 Slope 140

 

[Backache]

Playing off scratch at a pitch and putt course is great for the ego, but doesn’t equate to scratch at a championship course.

The Course rating system means it is meant to be designed precisely so that it does. How well it works I don't actually know.

 

[Backsticks]

The Course rating system means it is meant to be designed precisely so that it does. How well it works I don't actually know.

It works well enough. (the 53 points stories are a different issue). But in this discussion of distance, course length is irrelevant to what handicap you will reach. A 200yd max driver wont get to low single hc on a 7300yd course. He wont get there on a 5500yd course either.

 

[clubchamp98]

A short hitter who only knocks it 200 yards will struggle to break 90 off the back tees at Sawgrass, even if they hit it straight and have a great short game. Another terrible example to add to your long list on this thread

Playing off scratch at a pitch and putt course is great for the ego, but doesn’t equate to scratch at a championship course.

When I played Sawgrass I was off 4 handicap.
The difference off the Tips to the tees we played would make it almost impossible for most handicap golfers to get round on their handicap.
It’s not just length.
The tees are tucked away in the trees ,you have to shape the ball both ways.
There is water everywhere you don’t really see on the tv.
if you hit it in the wrong place your knackered and just playing for position.
off the tips most won’t get on the par fours in two..
Then you have to negotiate the greens

Ironically I found 17th the easy hole.

if you only hit it 200yds your going to struggle imo.

 

[Skytot]

Total putts is not really that useful. As noted, can mask a lot of other issues. Putting strokes gained is the useful one.

What does it mean by Putting strokes gained ? Is that single putts ?

 

[Backsticks]

What does it mean by Putting strokes gained ? Is that single putts ?

Strokes Gained-Putting quantifies a golfer's putting relative to the field, taking into account the initial distance of each putt.

https://edtechmagazine.com/higher/article/2012/04/how-strokes-gained-putting-works

 

[Backsticks]

My current strokes gained status after 12 rounds in 2023 against a scratch golfer; bear in mind I am currently a 16 index (although have not submitted a score since Oct and have been having lessons sporadically through winter)
Tee shots: -6.00
Approaches: -6.05
Short Game: +0.25
Putting: -0.95

Now the reason my tee shots and approaches are poor compared to a scratch player is simply because my tee shots are not far enough up the hole. It's not an accuracy issue. I am leaving myself with longer shots into the green, therefore the longer clubs which are more difficult to hit which in turn then affects my approach play into greens. That could also be rectified to an lesser extent by changing my set up and having a 4/5 wood and maybe a 7 wood instead of a 4hyb and a 5/6iron but the main issue is distance. I carry the driver around 210-220 average with mixed ball striking. If I train for a bit of speed and I then after a bit of work can carry the driver 230-240 that simply changes my game massively and my handicap will drop quicker than a splash ball at Sawgrass.

I am a decent putter and have a good short game especially for my handicap but putting this year hasn't been great, but I am putting that down to the conditions and the fact I haven't played in any competitions yet. I tend to take my putting more serious in comps so this is normal for me. Put it simply, if I am 20 yards further off the tee, I leave myself 1/2/3 clubs shorter in depending on conditions on the day, and much easier clubs to strike, therefore I am hitting more greens and with my putting being good my scores will be lower.

It's really not rocket science.

Thats a great shortgame! Surprised your hc isnt lower. You should be 11-12. Maybe strategy ? Do you aim for the middle of all greens, away from tee trouble even if it brings the rough on one side into play ?
Or you are primed to drop a few shots once better weather comes !

 

[PhilTheFragger]

CVG is an example of this.
Steady 200 off the tee, can't reach most par 4s in 2 unless it's the middle of summer, has a variable short game but, and he's the first to admit it, if he could putt he'd be dangerous.
He must lose 7 or 8 shots per round to poor putting..giving him an extra 20 yards off the tee won't make a difference to him as he'll still leave his first putt 6 feet short or 5 feet long and miss the next..almost every time...frustrating watch.

But not as frustrating as watching me