The great drive for dough putt for show debate thread.

[rudebhoy]

I was chatting to a pro after a recent lesson, and he asked me what club I would normally choose for a tee shot on a par 4 or 5. I said driver every time. He then asked how often I ended up in trouble off the tee, the answer was pretty often.

He said he recently carried out an experiment on Trackman. He chose a fairly average course of 6200 yards. He set it so that it automatically counted 2 putts on every hole. So that's 36 shots. He then divided 6200 by 36, which is 172 yards. Apart from par 3s, he hit his 6 iron on every hole. He averaged 171 yards with his 6 iron, and recorded a score of +4. That would have been a good bit lower if he had actually putted as a lot of his 2nd shots ended up within 10 feet of the hole.

The moral of the story was you don't need to hit driver to score well, and his view was that higher handicappers particularly would see an improvement in their scores if they used their driver far less often.

 

[Captainron]

That's a very easy trade to make but the deal on the table is 40 yards shorter with driver and be a demon putter

Still Want to take it?

Yup. 270 is enough

 

[Springveldt]

In 2011, Luke Donald was the first player to win both money lists on the PGA and European Tours in the same year.
At the time, he was ranked 147 th in driving distance and 1st in putting

And where is he now? Around 2015 Speith was amazing with the putter and won a lot but it wasn’t sustainable, look at what happened to him.

Gregg Chalmers is statistically in the top 5 in PGA Tour history for putting yet I’m betting more than half this forum has no idea who he is.

Will be interesting to see if Cam Smith can keep up this level of putting for the next 5 years as we know that Rory, Rahm etc will still be smashing it miles in 5 years and be in contention more often than not.

 

[D-S]

And where is he now? .

Interestingly he tried to gain yardage and in doing so lost accuracy, so chasing length at the expense of width was the problem, similarly Manassero did the same with similar results.

 

[bobmac]

And where is he now?

Well, he was 1st in putting, he's now 130th

 

[Deleted member 1147]

We obviously have different memories of his driving accuracy although at the time he was one of the longest hitters.

You think Tiger Woods wasn’t at some point in his career, a better driver of the ball than me, a 2 handicap?

 

[King Julian]

King Julian wonders why so many still believe drive for show. King Julian has never hit a putt out of bounds or into the water.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

King Julian wonders why so many still believe drive for show. King Julian has never hit a putt out of bounds or into the water.

I reckon a few I here have.
bit generally I think King Julian makes a good point.

 

[bobmac]

King Julian wonders why so many still believe drive for show. King Julian has never hit a putt out of bounds or into the water.

Because anyone can putt.
Crowds don't go to watch their heroes putt, they go to watch them hit 300yds + drives

 

[King Julian]

Because anyone can putt.
Crowds don't go to watch their heroes putt, they go to watch them hit 300yds + drives

King Julian says anyone can drive and he enjoys watching putting too.
King Julian doesnt really understand bobmac.

 

[Backsticks]

King Julian may be informed that many are simply unaware of the fact that putt for dough has been definitively shown to be incorrect. This is due to the putt for dough line being well entrenched for decades, despite bein false, an that data, and equipment changes, making drive for dough the correct perspective, has only been widespread for the last 15 years or so. Old beliefs can be slow to shake off, however incorrect.

 

[Backsticks]

You think Tiger Woods wasn’t at some point in his career, a better driver of the ball than me, a 2 handicap?

Fairways hit is similar for scratch golfers an 15hcs. 48% v 50% I think. The difference is in the distance, not the accuracy.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Does anyone know the view taken by Louie, King Of The Swingers, on this issue?

 

[Jimaroid]

Fairways hit is similar for scratch golfers an 15hcs. 48% v 50% I think. The difference is in the distance, not the accuracy.

No, that’s classic survivorship bias. The difference is what happens in the 52% and 50% that is being ignored. A 15 hcp player could drive further than a scratch player, both miss the fairway and the scratch player still complete the hole in fewer strokes.

 

[Beezerk]

I think I am fairly well qualified to answer this question seeing as I hit it miles but putt like Stevie Wonder with Parkinsons.

Bombing drives is great and all but sinking putts is better scoring wise.

I would lose 10 yards off the tee to make more putts

Last year I was having a mare off the tee for a while, second shot was either a reload or a knob out from the trees. Had a run of my worst scores ever during that period as no matter how good my short game was trying to rail in a 20ft putt for 1 point wasn’t fun.
Fast forward a few months my driving got a lot better and my scores were consistently good and my handicap dropped to show this.
Golf is such a multi faceted sport that you can’t just say one area is more important than the other, besides I reckon the old putt for dough line is only rolled out by those wimps who don’t hit it far off the tee

 

[King Julian]

King Julian may be informed that many are simply unaware of the fact that putt for dough has been definitively shown to be incorrect. This is due to the putt for dough line being well entrenched for decades, despite bein false, an that data, and equipment changes, making drive for dough the correct perspective, has only been widespread for the last 15 years or so. Old beliefs can be slow to shake off, however incorrect.

King Julian understands that golfers struggle to understand how much difference distance can make. King Julian has also been reading a thread where many believe they are better from 100 yards than 50. King Julian shakes his head

 

[jim8flog]

You think Tiger Woods wasn’t at some point in his career, a better driver of the ball than me, a 2 handicap?

My memory is of him spraying it about quite a bit but his prestigous length (compared to other pros at the time) more than made up for it.

 

[Voyager EMH]

I don't think Bobby Locke was making a hard and fast rule for all golfers in all situations when he made his comment.
I think he was applying it to what he had to do to win tournaments. He did win a lot of tournaments.
Crowds like to see the big shots - putts win tournaments.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

In 2011, Luke Donald was the first player to win both money lists on the PGA and European Tours in the same year.
At the time, he was ranked 147 th in driving distance and 1st in putting

He was also a wonderful wedge player (incl chipping and bunkers)

 

[Backsticks]

Can you explain the bolded part please?
It may be a correlation because generally faster players are better players, but how does faster club head speed CAUSE more consistent ball striking?

The following may be interesting to you on the speed also bringing accuracy.
The mechanics is a bit beyond me, but it seems linked to the rotation of the forearm in the last moments before impact. This rotation to contact the ball squarely depends on the torque generated, and in good players, not conscious or deliberate at all. The faster the swing, the greater the moment arm, the more consistent the squaring. Flattening the plane to be able to generate this moment arm seems the real hallmark of good players. The rest of us suffering various combinations of throwing the right shoulder outside the plane, the arms, or worst, casting with the right wrist.

Hogans 5 lessons has a lot of imprecise and unscientific language, but he does seem to have hit the key points nonetheless and really been ahead of his time: the pane of glass, and the legs-torso-arms-wrists sequence being key.