The great drive for dough putt for show debate thread.

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

If he wants to be good he does. + 2.4 is nowhere near good enough for a tour player.

…just checked and without this years comps for her US College team, our top amateur lass has a HI of -6.4. Her coaches out there reckon she has a decent chance of making it. But she’s only 19 so who knows how the next three years will go for her.

 

[Voyager EMH]

…just checked and without this years comps for her US College team, our top amateur lass has a HI of -6.4. Her coaches out there reckon she has a decent chance of making it. But she’s only 19 so who knows how the next three years will go for her.

Hijacking the thread again, please forgive me, but take a look at the Bailey family at Kirby Muxloe golf club.

 

[patricks148]

This was my game the last couple of weeks.
I'm not long by forum standards, but prob longest in my group of mates that play together ever week. Didn't miss a fair way yesterday and was always 30 yards plus past the rest of out 4 ball. Had at least 5 three putts, shot an 80 gross, my partner who moaned on every hole how far past him I was, shot 73 gross

 

[Backsticks]

My impression from reading this thread is that there's a whole bunch of golfers who cannot be persuaded to change their thinking about golf in the face of any presented statistically coherent evidence,
Which is fine. It's a hobby. no-one dies.

One thing that stats can belp with is the mental side of the game.
Knowing how likely it is that you'll miss a green from 100yds from the middle of the fairway, or miss a putt from 10ft, or 3 putt from 50ft might make it easier to move onto the next shot in a better frame of mind.
Sometimes it's the (misplaced) hope that kills ya.

I think its more than just not changing their minds, they just are really not informed on the latest information on the topic.

It is 'relatively' recent, lets say last 10 years or so, that a more accurate understanding of the importance of distance has come about.

Presented only with the conclusion, it contradicts previously accepted truisms on golf, that is still out there, in books, professionals, casual advice from uninformed but well meaning playing partners, etc. So is rejected as if the matter is still open, and that different opinions are possible. Instead, its more akin to still saying the earth is flat, despite the evidence of Columbus or Magellan.

Also, two imprecisions are latched onto by those still living by the old religion. 1) Hit it further doesnt mean slashing wildly, swinging out of your shoes, and using every muscle of you body. That will of course be counter productive in both speed and accuracy. By chasing length, is meant improving technique, strength, power, and the intent to hit it your furthest. 2) It does not mean longer no matter what. Of course if there is a stream or bunkers or ob in your longest driving landing zone you do NOT hit your longest shot. But in most cases that is not the case. Penalty risk is broadly similar whether you hit your drive distance of today, or 20 yards further. So you will gain by pushing for that extra 20.

 

[King Julian]

I think its more than just not changing their minds, they just are really not informed on the latest information on the topic.

It is 'relatively' recent, lets say last 10 years or so, that a more accurate understanding of the importance of distance has come about.

Presented only with the conclusion, it contradicts previously accepted truisms on golf, that is still out there, in books, professionals, casual advice from uninformed but well meaning playing partners, etc. So is rejected as if the matter is still open, and that different opinions are possible. Instead, its more akin to still saying the earth is flat, despite the evidence of Columbus or Magellan.

Also, two imprecisions are latched onto by those still living by the old religion. 1) Hit it further doesnt mean slashing wildly, swinging out of your shoes, and using every muscle of you body. That will of course be counter productive in both speed and accuracy. By chasing length, is meant improving technique, strength, power, and the intent to hit it your furthest. 2) It does not mean longer no matter what. Of course if there is a stream or bunkers or ob in your longest driving landing zone you do NOT hit your longest shot. But in most cases that is not the case. Penalty risk is broadly similar whether you hit your drive distance of today, or 20 yards further. So you will gain by pushing for that extra 20.

King Julian likes this post.

 

[Voyager EMH]

So there we have it.
If you want to improve and see your handicap coming down, longer driving will definitely help a great deal.
If you want to win a comp on any particular day, your best day of putting for that year will give you the best chance of doing so, as long as you have been hitting reasonable drives.

The above is what I think Bobby Locke was describing about his own personal experience when it came to winning comps.
I doubt if he ever intended it to be a mantra for all golfers at all times. And I don't think it is.

 

[garyinderry]

On our 7th hole in winter we are moved up to the womens tee box at 282. I drove the green and proceeded to 3 putt it.

If someone had said to me " drive for show, putt for doh" , they would have been right in this instance.

 

[garyinderry]

So there we have it.
If you want to improve and see your handicap coming down, longer driving will definitely help a great deal.
If you want to win a comp on any particular day, your best day of putting for that year will give you the best chance of doing so, as long as you have been hitting reasonable drives.

The above is what I think Bobby Locke was describing about his own personal experience when it came to winning comps.
I doubt if he ever intended it to be a mantra for all golfers at all times. And I don't think it is.

It wasnt that long ago that Bryson had the golf world holding its breath as it looked like he was about to make a mockery of the game with his length. He had officials quaking, tour pros shaking and course designers agonising at the though of him blowing away the field with his length off the tee.
Turns out its really hard to keep the ball in play when you swing crazy hard. Hes not half the player he was, hes dialed back his distance and no one is worried about him playing agusta as a par 67.
To win you have to have the full package.

 

[Backsticks]

A key element is to see the big picture rather than specific cases. That was what created some of the incorrect view of the past. What McIlroy does, how a player partner drove it and scored last week, or what a plus guy said in the bar last month is best dismissed completely. Now we can draw solid statistical conclusions on how good players play, where their game differs from the high hcapper, where do mid hcappers lose strokes versus a single figure man, and where the scope for improvement lies, etc. The one off stories lead to incorrect conclusions.

 

[Springveldt]

Interestingly he tried to gain yardage and in doing so lost accuracy, so chasing length at the expense of width was the problem, similarly Manassero did the same with similar results.

So even the best putter in the world realised his results weren’t sustainable and he needed to gain length to compete?

The stats are there, it’s pretty conclusive that being longer makes the game easier. Just because Luke Donald failed doesn’t mean amateurs shouldn’t be chasing distance. Look at Fitzpatrick last season, gains about 9mph of ball speed and wins the US Open.

 

[Crow]

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

 

[Region3]

King Julian once saw someone hit 5 tee shots off the same tee in the same round. It wasn't a pretty site. King Julian doesnt remember if they one putted or not.

I’m guessing he didn’t take the 4 extra tee shots because the others weren’t far enough.

 

[KenL]

Yup. 270 is enough

Do you average 310 yards?

 

[Bobthesock]

Played today with a guy who is a massive hitter, one of the longest at the club. His best ones are 50 yards past me.
My strength is putting and chipping. We both play off 8

 

[pokerjoke]

Can someone tell Rory
DFS PFD

 

[Backsticks]

DFSPFD has some limited application within golfers of the same standard. But no application over the full range of handicap golfers.
Putting is less controllable than any other aspect of the game. There is a random element, that while having the good day that we all know, holing putts from long range, and possibly winning, cannot be mastered to repeat. If you move from a 220yd driver to a 260 yard driver, that strength is repeated without fail. It is simply there every time you tee up. The 260yd hitter will have their variability in putting too - no little different to the 220yd hitter. The consistent and repeatable improvement to play level, is the added 40 yards.

 

[Bobthesock]

DFSPFD has some limited application within golfers of the same standard. But no application over the full range of handicap golfers.
Putting is less controllable than any other aspect of the game. There is a random element, that while having the good day that we all know, holing putts from long range, and possibly winning, cannot be mastered to repeat. If you move from a 220yd driver to a 260 yard driver, that strength is repeated without fail. It is simply there every time you tee up. The 260yd hitter will have their variability in putting too - no little different to the 220yd hitter. The consistent and repeatable improvement to play level, is the added 40 yards.

That is true. On good greens a good putter will sink most 6 footers though, most people I play with are about 50/50 from that range.
Putting keeps me In single figures with a long game of a mid handicapper

 

[Backsticks]

And, longer hitters gain the benefit of their longer hitting over far more shots. Making it far more influential on their score than even significant putting or short game improvement.

Take a typical round which includes a medium 30-34 putts. This will have 18 tee shots, and 18 fairway (14 par second shots, 4 par 5 third shots) shots. For 36 hits. Of the 32 putts for example, 12 will be irrelevant tap ins, whether from chips or second putts. 12 or 14 will be putts with negligible chances of being holes - into the range of 2ft is the likely outcome. Leaving 8 or 10 that actually govern score outcome. And to a great degree they have an uncontrollable random element - good days / bad days. And about 6 or 8 shortgame shots. So improving the performace of the 36 long shots is the key. And they influence each other - the longer the drive, the greater the probablility of an accurate approach shot.

 

[pendodave]

Played today with a guy who is a massive hitter, one of the longest at the club. His best ones are 50 yards past me.
My strength is putting and chipping. We both play off 8

Yep. And my granny smoked 20 a day and lived to 90...
This thread is full of anecdotes masquerading as data.
I knew this bloke who never drank and ran a mile every day and died of a heart attack at 50....
Of course there are outliers. (Apparently most players on this thread are statistical anomolies), but on balance, you'll be more likely to play golf well if you think about the numbers.
Just like you'll ( most likely) live healthier,l longer lives if you follow the numbers.

 

[Backsticks]

That is true. On good greens a good putter will sink most 6 footers though, most people I play with are about 50/50 from that range.
Putting keeps me In single figures with a long game of a mid handicapper

I guess its technicaly possible, but with respect, an extraordinary outlier. To gain 6 or 7 shots over fellow 15 long-game-handicappers sounds far fetched. Do you have Arcos or Shot Scope data on that ?