The Footie Thread

[Hobbit]

Down the years, how many clubs have we seem scrape into Europe with an average, paper thin squad then struggle in the league and in Europe? Some of them have struggled to avoid relegation during their European season, and may have gone down the season or two afterwards.

After the season we’ve seen from Spurs & Utd, did anyone seriously expect a decent game? Both Spurs & Utd have lost star players in recent years, or they’ve waned with age, and not replaced them. Where they’ve finished in the league is on merit, not because of a load of bad luck. Yeah but, yeah but, yeah but… NO! If either of them have a bad summer window, and one of the newly promoted teams has a good one, one of them on current form will go down.

Is the Aussie good enough to move Spurs forward, after all he’s just won a trophy? No. He won a trophy because England’s dross is better than Europe’s dross. What about Amorim? Too soon for me to say but in terms of what he has to work with, both in the team and those above, god help him.

 

[Billysboots]

@Billysboots @Swango1980 how much money do you give him this summer? If he goes big and then gets the boot at Christmas, you could be in the same position this time next year and have a new batch of players that the next manager doesn't like, all on long contracts. The way he has failed to inspire the current team is a double edged sword. It can either say the current squad is very poor or he can not coach and inspire to the degree required. Which way the owners see it will show up when you start to spend this summer. It would have been much easier for them if you had ended up mid table with some decent performances being thrown in every so often.

It's an interesting one.

How much? No idea. But the absolute minimum requirement is a central striker who knows where the goal is. Someone to lead the line, so that Hojlund, if he stays, can continue as a back up and learn his craft whilst the undoubted scars of this season heal.

Defensively I’m reasonably happy with the choices at centre back. As for wingbacks I have a fairly simplistic view - you either need a winger who can track back and defend (we have none) or a full back who is good going forward. Dalot has been a half decent stop gap on the right but he’s a classic full back. He isn’t the long term future in a 3-4-3. So a right wingback is another requirement.

So we’re looking at a minimum of two absolute must buys. I absolutely agree with you that we cannot buy players specifically for Amorim and then sack him. That’s not the rinse and repeat cycle we’ve become used to in the past, because the recruitment over the last decade has been so chaotic it’s difficult to say that we’ve brought players in with the identity of the manager being a key consideration. If anything it would be worse - no point buying an attacking wingback only to sack the manager, and replace him with one who rigidly sticks to a 4-4-2 or something similar.

However you dress it up, it’s a mess. Worse than when Moyes was sacked, worse than when Van Gaal and Mourinho were given the boot, and worse than when Solskjaer and ten Hag went.

This is a culmination of a decade or more of woeful mismanagement at the highest level, which is why the fans so dislike the owners. And it’s why I hope they did their homework on Amorim. Because I think they now need to stick with a manager for a few years and see where it takes us.

 

[Billysboots]

Can't help but read the reaction on Twitter and can't help but feel sorry for Onana for the flak he is getting. I'm not saying that he hasn't had shockers this season and it's arguable as to whether he is up to the job however I just can't see how he can be held responsible for the goal last night. The ball bounced back out and Shaw got in the way and it went back into the goal. Seems extremely harsh.

I actually don’t think he was at fault for the goal, but his dithering causes doubt in front of him.

He is a six yard box goalkeeper. He doesn’t command his area in any way, shape or form. He won’t come for crosses, remains on his line when one of his defenders if facing him with the ball at their feet and an opposition player breathing down their necks, and his communication seems absolutely non existent. In short, whilst Schmeichel may well not have kept the Spurs goal out, such was the Dane’s presence there was rarely the sort of commotion in front of him that we see in front of Onana. Onana is actually a half decent shot stopper, but he needs to be, because the pressure he actually invites means he is rarely out of the action.

So, when I said in another post United need a central striker and right wingback as a minimum, you can perhaps add a keeper to that. He’s had two seasons and, whilst I have tried my hardest to be supportive of him, he’s just not good enough.

 

[Junior]

9 cup finals in 10 years. Utd are amazing there’s nothing wrong at all

Who else is out there ? Southgate ? Give Amorim 2 transfer windows then get the next cab off the rank….anyone who’ll play a 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 though.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

How much? No idea. But the absolute minimum requirement is a central striker who knows where the goal is. Someone to lead the line, so that Hojlund, if he stays, can continue as a back up and learn his craft whilst the undoubted scars of this season heal.

Defensively I’m reasonably happy with the choices at centre back. As for wingbacks I have a fairly simplistic view - you either need a winger who can track back and defend (we have none) or a full back who is good going forward. Dalot has been a half decent stop gap on the right but he’s a classic full back. He isn’t the long term future in a 3-4-3. So a right wingback is another requirement.

So we’re looking at a minimum of two absolute must buys. I absolutely agree with you that we cannot buy players specifically for Amorim and then sack him. That’s not the rinse and repeat cycle we’ve become used to in the past, because the recruitment over the last decade has been so chaotic it’s difficult to say that we’ve brought players in with the identity of the manager being a key consideration. If anything it would be worse - no point buying an attacking wingback only to sack the manager, and replace him with one who rigidly sticks to a 4-4-2 or something similar.

However you dress it up, it’s a mess. Worse than when Moyes was sacked, worse than when Van Gaal and Mourinho were given the boot, and worse than when Solskjaer and ten Hag went.

This is a culmination of a decade or more of woeful mismanagement at the highest level, which is why the fans so dislike the owners. And it’s why I hope they did their homework on Amorim. Because I think they now need to stick with a manager for a few years and see where it takes us.

Got to be a lot more than just two players needed at minimum at a must

GK , CB’s , CM and a striker

Unless Amorin looks to adjust the system but why hasn’t he so far

So the players arriving need to fit his system and if his system doesn’t work

But it all comes down to who is picking and buying the players and even worse - what money is there to spend

The club still owe over £300mil for the players they have , close to PSR

Some players will need to be sold at a loss as well

So that leaves selling off players for pure profit - Garnacho, Mainoo , Amass and Rashford of course

If it goes wrong again - relegation could well be in the minds

 

[Tashyboy]

Any Man Utd fans getting really excited about our tour to Asia next week, and the matches against ASEAN All Stars and Hong Kong?

If we win both, do we get a trophy?

I wouldn’t take the squirrel to Hong kong. It would soon be on the grill out there.

 

[4LEX]

Point me in the direction of where I said I had faith in them. I said I suspect they’ve been planning for this eventuality, doubtless since they took the decision to sack ten Hag.

I won’t even say I have faith in Amorim. I like the guy. I think there’s real potential for him to succeed. But I can’t and won’t judge him on a few months. Months during which even the most deluded football observer would have to accept he has been given a free hit.

I’ll judge once he has had at least one full summer transfer window and a few months with his own squad. Even then, given the amount of work which needs doing, may be too soon.

My view is Man Utd are one of the biggest 3 clubs in the world and should be demanding more from the managers. Real or Barca wouldn't accept it but it seems you're happy to give another unproven manager another year to hope for the best? Man Utd are bigger and better than that. It should be instant results, progress and success or you're gone. It's how other elite clubs operate. When you've got the financial power you have, success is actually a lot easier to achieve. You appoint the best managers and sign the best players that fit that manager.

Ever since Ferguson left I don't think you've done that once. The only time was Jose but even after some success he wasn't really backed in the transfer market and it all fell apart.

The worry is Amorin has had 6-7 months now, not just a few weeks. The football and results have actually got worse. He'll get the summer because he was a Berrada appointment and he's not going to lose face. It's looking like Ashworth should've stayed and Berrada left.

As I said, I've always had a soft spot for Man Utd due to growing up in the mid 90's and watching all the CL games on ITV and have alot of friends who support them. It's just frustrating from the outside seeing the same mistakes being made over and over again

 

[Tashyboy]

Didn’t watch the game last night, thank god. But my take of it was it purgatory to watch. Seriously was it a surprise. Even world class teams struggle to play in memorable quality finals. So two teams that are lucky there was three worse teams in the prem, so avoid point relegation were hardly going to play a quality final.
As a neutral. I liked Amorims team when they battered City in the champs league. He has shown he can do it. But it was with a squad that he built. I cannot imagine for one minute that any of the top six would take a single player from Utd. They are that bad. And that includes Fernandes. Do Utd have £300 million to make Utd into a mid table team.
Re Spurs, the fans that I talk to that go to the games like Ange. Again they have said he has had players out. But again do Spurs have £300 million to turn that squad around.
What has not been mentioned is that both these teams qualified for the Europa last season and there fall from the top of the table has been nothing short of astonishing. I will be gobsmacked to see both these teams pushing for the top six next season. Esp Spurs who have Champs league football.
On a positive note, at least Utd fans won’t miss any episodes of Coronation street next season as there midweeks will be free.

 

[Billysboots]

It should be instant results, progress and success or you're gone. It's how other elite clubs operate.

It took Klopp three years, I believe, to win his first trophy at Liverpool. Arteta, if you place Arsenal in the elite bracket, has one FA Cup to show for six years at the club.

Whilst part of me agrees with you, United simply cannot be sacking managers every year or so. I prefer consistency over chopping and changing all day long. At the very least, having arrived against his better judgement mid way through an already chaotic season, Amorim should be allowed a summer transfer window and a season.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

It took Klopp three years, I believe, to win his first trophy at Liverpool. Arteta, if you place Arsenal in the elite bracket, has one FA Cup to show for six years at the club.

Whilst part of me agrees with you, United simply cannot be sacking managers every year or so. I prefer consistency over chopping and changing all day long. At the very least, having arrived against his better judgement mid way through an already chaotic season, Amorim should be allowed a summer transfer window and a season.

If you sack managers every year you will run out of managers lol

 

[4LEX]

It took Klopp three years, I believe, to win his first trophy at Liverpool. Arteta, if you place Arsenal in the elite bracket, has one FA Cup to show for six years at the club.

Whilst part of me agrees with you, United simply cannot be sacking managers every year or so. I prefer consistency over chopping and changing all day long. At the very least, having arrived against his better judgement mid way through an already chaotic season, Amorim should be allowed a summer transfer window and a season.

Man Utd are bigger than Liverpool and Arsenal though. You should be looking at Real, Barca and Bayern for how to operate. Liverpool have closed the gap in the last 5-6 years with their success.

If you got the right manager in you wouldn't need to sack them each year.

 

[Hobbit]

Southgate keeps getting mentioned as a possible for Utd, or even Spurs. 9 months ago he was getting slagged off up hill and down dale here. He was manager at Middlesbrough, and nowt special. He was decent as U21 manager for England, and I was expecting great things when he got the full England job. Never mind.

He just doesn’t have the CV for somewhere like Utd.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

when a new manager arrives at a club the things you look at over the next coming months

Improvement in results
A clear pattern of play
Improvements in players

I don’t think you could say Amorin has achieved any of those

Yes it’s not his players but that doesn’t mean as a manager at a big club you can’t look to improve the players

He did well at Porto but that’s Porto

He was someone we looked at to replace Klopp but club didn’t persue it because the thinking was he couldn’t work with our current squad

With everything that’s happening off the field with Ineos then Man Utd are in a very very dangerous position

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Southgate keeps getting mentioned as a possible for Utd, or even Spurs. 9 months ago he was getting slagged off up hill and down dale here. He was manager at Middlesbrough, and nowt special. He was decent as U21 manager for England, and I was expecting great things when he got the full England job. Never mind.

He just doesn’t have the CV for somewhere like Utd.

I don’t think he would be a success but I think he would have done better than Amorin and get the team mid table and to start to build up - get more solid foundations

But Tuchel is the one they should have got last summer imo

 

[4LEX]

when a new manager arrives at a club the things you look at over the next coming months

Improvement in results
A clear pattern of play
Improvements in players

I don’t think you could say Amorin has achieved any of those

Yes it’s not his players but that doesn’t mean as a manager at a big club you can’t look to improve the players

He did well at Porto but that’s Porto

He was someone we looked at to replace Klopp but club didn’t persue it because the thinking was he couldn’t work with our current squad

With everything that’s happening off the field with Ineos then Man Utd are in a very very dangerous position

The thing is most well run clubs would look at their squad and hire someone to get the best out of them as the playing squad is the biggest asset. No idea why anyone would appoint someone who isn't suitable for the players you've got. It's a lot easier and cheaper to replace a manager than a dozen or more players.

It just makes no sense. Appointing a manager that doesn't play with wingers and plays with 5 defenders is against everything Busby and Ferguson stood for.

 

[4LEX]

Southgate keeps getting mentioned as a possible for Utd, or even Spurs. 9 months ago he was getting slagged off up hill and down dale here. He was manager at Middlesbrough, and nowt special. He was decent as U21 manager for England, and I was expecting great things when he got the full England job. Never mind.

He just doesn’t have the CV for somewhere like Utd.

I'm no fan of Southgate but he seems a decent guy with good man management skills. It's possible he's learnt from his mistakes with Boro and also England. His style of football isn't pretty but it's effective. I'd like to see him back at club level to see how he gets on.

 

[pendodave]

I'm no fan of Southgate but he seems a decent guy with good man management skills. It's possible he's learnt from his mistakes with Boro and also England. His style of football isn't pretty but it's effective. I'd like to see him back at club level to see how he gets on.

Haha
I agree with all of the above. But I'd like to be clear that the club in question shouldn't be the one which I support...

 

[Fade and Die]

Haha
I agree with all of the above. But I'd like to be clear that the club in question shouldn't be the one which I support...

I’d take a chance.

 

[pendodave]

I’d take a chance.

We have Southgate deluxe already though .
As for changing managers often - if it wasn't for Chelsea, I'd say that it's definitely the sign of a poorly run club. Having said that, if it's obvious that someone isn't up to the job, soonest done and all that.

 

[Swango1980]

@Billysboots @Swango1980 how much money do you give him this summer? If he goes big and then gets the boot at Christmas, you could be in the same position this time next year and have a new batch of players that the next manager doesn't like, all on long contracts. The way he has failed to inspire the current team is a double edged sword. It can either say the current squad is very poor or he can not coach and inspire to the degree required. Which way the owners see it will show up when you start to spend this summer. It would have been much easier for them if you had ended up mid table with some decent performances being thrown in every so often.

It's an interesting one.

For me, it's not how much you give HIM in isolation. Otherwise you will always have that dilemma for whatever manager you have.

They need to figure it out together. He had to have an input, as do the board, chief scouts, etc. If Amorim wants a striker, and the striker looks decent for a reasonable price, go for it. If he wants Darwin Nunez for £150 million, the board need to say no.

But, clearly we need goals. And we need characters, players we know will battle and not hide in games. So I hope they are not just looking at kids who look like they can do a few tricks. We are OK for defence generally, so I wouldn't be spending big there.