How bad to Utd look at the back…..
Great come back but you’ve got to think better sides will give them a hammering!!
Great come back but you’ve got to think better sides will give them a hammering!!
That result should in no way hide the fact that, for 45 minutes, that was as bad as United have been in years. I don’t know who said what at half time, but it’s about time it was said before the first whistle.
Playing like that might win one-off games, but it cannot be part of a long term plan.
Swango1980
Well-known member
Still don't have a clue what the game plan Ole is trying to use? Awful. Thankfully the quality of the players sometimes gets us through it.
That Ronaldo tho, terrible signing.....
That Ronaldo tho, terrible signing.....
Junior
Tour Winner
What a night of ups and downs at the Theatre of Dreams/Nightmares. The crowd got behind Ole and the team like I've never seen before at the start, then we proceeded to defend like an U13's side, booed off at HT before coming out and playing like everyone knows they can. Could have scored a few more , but Atalanta wasted a couple of chances too.
In summary, the result papers over the cracks and the bottom line is we need more experienced holding midfielder than Fred. Also, something we need to consider is stopping the play better. So often we were left out of shape at the back and in midfield by quick breaks (same against Leicester)
In summary, the result papers over the cracks and the bottom line is we need more experienced holding midfielder than Fred. Also, something we need to consider is stopping the play better. So often we were left out of shape at the back and in midfield by quick breaks (same against Leicester)
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Still don't have a clue what the game plan Ole is trying to use? Awful. Thankfully the quality of the players sometimes gets us through it.
That Ronaldo tho, terrible signing.....
Ronaldo bailed them out, certainly, but I am still left wondering how much of the truly awful performance against Leicester, the first half last night and any of the other inept performances so far this season are a direct result of Solskjaer trying to accommodate one individual. We saw yet again last night that we are relying on individual brilliance to paper over huge cracks.
Moving on from that, to hear Solskjaer say he thought United played well during that first half last night was, quite frankly, embarrassing. They were abject, make no bones about it. As I said last night, the ease of the move which resulted in the corner leading to Atalanta’s second sums this United side up - lazy, a lack of work ethic, lack of direction and leadership. That one move should be giving every United fan sleepless nights with Liverpool coming to town on Sunday.
If anyone thinks this is a turning point, think again. We will still struggle to get out of that Champion’s League group, and top four is a pipe dream unless either the manager suddenly learns how to manage, or the club shows him the door.
Swango1980
Well-known member
Fred is not great. But before game, Ole confirmed Utd would play 4-2-4. And they did, and it was awful. As Scholes said, it doesn't matter who those 2 midfielders were, it would be impossible for them.
Swango1980
Well-known member
If Ronaldo wasn't up front, it would be someone else. So what do we mean by "accommodate him". Watching the game, he put a shift in. He was even defending his own box in periods of open play. However, he also gets himself into dangerous attacking positions time and time again. All the complaints about Kane are he is not getting himself in the box, Ronaldo cannot be accused of that.
However, the team as a whole are sluggish. None of them close down the opposition effectively, and I certainly do not think it is because we are accommodating Ronaldo. We have been awful at this a long time before Ronaldo arrived
Junior
Tour Winner
I think we bought Ronaldo to prevent him going to City. Cavani was playing well and his work rate is excellent. I'd have been happy with Cavani and Greenwood as our main 2.
Ultimately , Ole doesnt known his best formation and switches around too much. All the best teams stick to the same formation and rotate players in those positions. I'd love us to play a simple 433 or 442 as opposed to the disorganised mess we have today.
We will perhaps disagree, but by playing Ronaldo through the middle it forces Solskjaer to play others out of position. Greenwood, long term, has to play through the middle, surely. But he now faces at least one more season on the right of a front three, where not only does he drift in and out of games far too much, he is also required to track back. He doesn’t do that. Last night he was largely anonymous before he was hooked.
In the summer the club spent £70m plus on Jadon Sancho. Whenever I saw him play in Germany, his best position was the berth Greenwood now occupies. So to get game time he is also played out of position on the left of a front three. I’m not sure I see the sense in spending that sort of money on a player only to then tinker with where best to play him.
Cavani, who defends from the front in a way others can’t or won’t, is now warming the bench. If Rashford starts on the left, which is arguably the one and only position where he can be effective, the new £70m man has to join Cavani on the bench.
All that to accommodate one player. I am not for one moment disputing Ronaldo’s quality - he is still right up there with the best there is, but I genuinely feel that having him there unsettles the front three, which doubtless has an impact elsewhere.
I’m not saying the absence of a pressing game is new, because I agree it isn’t, but I have not seen United look so chaotically disjointed for a long time. There is absolutely no structure, no system and no plan in evidence and a large part of me thinks that simply has to be in part due to players either not understanding their role, or being asked to play a role they are uncomfortable in.
Swango1980
Well-known member
I agree that if Ronaldo was not there, then Greenwood would get his chance up front. Or would he, as Cavani would play more. So, would he rotate both players evenly, or stick Greenwood on right when Cavani is playing and let Sancho warm the bench? Regardless of the players, Ole doesn't really know what he is doing. His only way he can try and improve things when they are going wrong is try different players.
Tactically, Ole is inept. After Liverpool's game against Atletico, Klopp was asked how Atletico got back into the game. He provided an astute and detailed answer as to what went wrong tactically, what his players hould have been doing better. Talking about playing through lines, and the difference that is made when the opposition play deep, etc. Yet, when Ole was asked at the weekend what was wrong after the Leicester defeat, despite Utd being pretty abysmal for a long time, all he could say was "maybe we need to look at changing something". Pathetic. Utd's weakness has long been the gaping hole in midfield, yet before last night-s game he said we'd be playing 4-2-4. Pathetic. We get situations where are 4 attacking players are all up on the shoulders of the defence, trying to run in behind. It is so obvious and easy to defend against, especially as the defence sit deeper. You then have McTomminay and/or Fred who really do not have an easy pass on unless they go backwards. We need to try Hollywood balls, and often give the ball away. Therefore, we go through long periods when we simply have no control of the game, which is not good enough if you want to challenge at the top.
However, had we bought Kane in the summer, I've no doubt people would be praising the move. The only thing in my mind that Kane has over Ronaldo is age. As a fan, if I wanted one player in the world to be in the box when we play a ball in, I'd want it to be Ronaldo. If we had one player in the world to get on the end of a header, I would want it to be Ronaldo. If we had one player in the world to be one on one with the keeper, I would want it to be Ronaldo. If we had one player in the world who could be in the dressing room, having achieved more than virtually every other player in history and work his socks off to be the best he can to be a positive influence on those around him, I would want it to be Ronaldo. If we had a player who could lift the man Utd fans, I would want it to be Ronaldo. In my time of watching football, for me, Ronaldo has been the most exciting, inspirational signing we have ever made by a long shot. We've had a few, Rooney was excellent, especially when he scored a hat trick on his debut. But Ronaldo was most exciting signing we've had.
Ronaldo was not at Utd last season, Greenwood was not promoted as our permanent striker. Cavani, who I love, signed a new contract, and before Ronaldo signed would have been considered our main target man anyway, I doubt Greenwood would suddenly have become our striker and scored 25+ goals. I always questioned the strong determination to get Sancho. I felt we already had Greenwood in that position (and we had James at the time as well as cover). I'd have rather looked at a strong defensive midfielder who was confident on the ball, a long term striker and a defender (if anything, if we wanted someone on the right, I'd have got Traore from Wolves as an impact player). We obviously got the defender. We didn't get the long term striker, but at least for the next year or 2 have something even more special up front. If anything, it is Sancho that upsets the balance. Although, hopefully he'll come good.
I feel sorry for Lingard. I have definitely doubted him, but he has certainly showing he has a lot to offer. Being a form player, I would have definitely given him more game time in the last month or 2. However, Ole largely allows him to rot on the bench with de Beek. I genuinely thing Ole is scared of the reputation of some players, and is happy to let others suffer so not to upset his favourites. Granted, De Beek has not shown a lot, but nor has he been given a chance, and when he does he plays in a side tactically inept.
I absolutely agree with everything you say about Ronaldo, I am merely querying the logic of the signing. At no point during the summer was there ever really any talk of a striker coming in. Cavani extended his stay, the general consensus being that he would be the focal point, with Greenwood continuing to learn his craft for another season, primarily deputising for Cavani as the latter was never likely to play every week.
That assumption started to really make sense when Sancho came in. It looked for all the world like we would go with a front three of Cavani/Greenwood, with Sancho on the right and Rashford left, in what had the potential to be a really well balanced line. Then Ronaldo becomes available, United sign him and the natural assumption becomes a practical impossibility.
I absolutely love Ronaldo. I was at Old Trafford when he came on as a substitute against Bolton all those years ago, and you could see in an instant we had someone genuinely special. As time went on he got as much stick from the home fans for going to ground too easily as he did from opposing supporters, because everyone knew he was way, way better than that. As an ambassador for the club, leader of the line and role model for younger players there is absolutely nobody I would rather have.
But, his signing is a classic short term fix, and in eighteen months time we will have to find a new way of moving forward. By then what progress will Greenwood have made? Cavani will be a memory. Don’t get me wrong, I will enjoy Ronaldo’s mere presence on the pitch as much as the next person for as long as it lasts. But I question how it will impact on the team’s progress in a wider context.
That assumption started to really make sense when Sancho came in. It looked for all the world like we would go with a front three of Cavani/Greenwood, with Sancho on the right and Rashford left, in what had the potential to be a really well balanced line. Then Ronaldo becomes available, United sign him and the natural assumption becomes a practical impossibility.
I absolutely love Ronaldo. I was at Old Trafford when he came on as a substitute against Bolton all those years ago, and you could see in an instant we had someone genuinely special. As time went on he got as much stick from the home fans for going to ground too easily as he did from opposing supporters, because everyone knew he was way, way better than that. As an ambassador for the club, leader of the line and role model for younger players there is absolutely nobody I would rather have.
But, his signing is a classic short term fix, and in eighteen months time we will have to find a new way of moving forward. By then what progress will Greenwood have made? Cavani will be a memory. Don’t get me wrong, I will enjoy Ronaldo’s mere presence on the pitch as much as the next person for as long as it lasts. But I question how it will impact on the team’s progress in a wider context.
pokerjoke
Money List Winner
Really looking forward to the game at the weekend I think we will batter Liverpool.
Keep Salah quiet they don’t have much more.
Looking forward to TAA going forward and Rashford exploiting the space behind him probably get a hatrick.
Key to the game is Shaw and how he deals with the one season wonder.
Ronaldo just pure class,great signing.
Feel for Cavani as it’s probably his last big move .
Sancho just don’t see the hype.
Rashfords finishing apart from his goal was rusty but his movement was sublime.
Keep Salah quiet they don’t have much more.
Looking forward to TAA going forward and Rashford exploiting the space behind him probably get a hatrick.
Key to the game is Shaw and how he deals with the one season wonder.
Ronaldo just pure class,great signing.
Feel for Cavani as it’s probably his last big move .
Sancho just don’t see the hype.
Rashfords finishing apart from his goal was rusty but his movement was sublime.
ColchesterFC
Journeyman Pro
I'll have a half of whatever Pokerjoke is on. I'm not sure I could manage a pint of it. ?
I was thinking more of a shot glass, it looks powerful stuff
Swango1980
Well-known member
The niggling issue I have about Greenwood is will he ever be considered a striker. From memory, Thierry Henry aside, most great strikers in history started their career as a striker. Or, at least quickly went to that role. This allowed them to learn the craft from a very young age, learn from their mistakes, learn the movements required so it becomes instinctive etc. Before even Ronaldo arrived, last season Ole did not really give Greenwood much of a chance apart from a sprinkling of games. Obviously we had Cavani, but he also liked to play Martial or Rashford up front as the striker many times.
So, Ole had his chance to play him as a striker, and didn't. Now, I agree, it could be argued that Greenwood was the only person who could play on the right (as James was only ever a squad player), and Sancho fills that gap. However, given how ineffective Rashford and Martial were up front at times, it would have been just as well to stick one of them on the right instead of being ineffective up front (even though both are best suited on left) and let Greenwood play up top. When we extended Cavani's contract, and the way he played last year, I'd have expected him to play in the majority of games if fit, especially the big ones. So, even if this was the season for Greenwood to get more of a chance up front, I reckon it would still be very limited.
Yes, no doubt the Ronaldo signing had been not something planned in advance. It just sort of materialised, and Utd went for it. Had they refused to sign him, personally I'd have been more upset with Utd for not getting him in. I'd have been livid, whether he ended up at City or somewhere else, and then found out Utd could have signed him and didn't.
OK, Greenwood may need to wait a year or 2 if he is to be promoted to United full time striker. In meantime, he can learn from 2 of the greatest in the game. The attitude of both Ronaldo and Cavani is fantastic, that needs to filter back to our midfield. Ole needs to open his eyes, and understand you cannot just go gung ho attack and hope it will all work out.
I am genuinely intrigued as to how we play against Liverpool
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D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
We don’t have a great record there - I’m expecting a different United to turn up , going to be a very tight match Imo and I’m expecting a 1-1 draw.
Tashyboy
Please don’t ask to see my tatts 👍
One for the Utd fans. I keep hearing about this player is best in that position, that player is best in that position. Now don’t get me wrong watching City. You could be playing 433 but whoever finds himself out wide right does not always stay there. They could be anywhere. They are very fluid. Now that has come Down to coaching. Is that not in the Utd locker to be able to move from A Designated position on the pitch.
pokerjoke
Money List Winner
I’m totally in agreement with you.
If I’m buying a player like Sancho for 80 million and he can only play left side he won’t get much game time.
He might be better on one side or another but should never be a one trick pony.
The very best players are versatile.
Tashyboy
Please don’t ask to see my tatts 👍
I didn’t really have a opinion on Utd coz I don’t watch them. But that’s what I was picking up. That said. Again it’s down to Pep, Ole, Klopp etc to Coach that into them.
I don’t disagree, Tash, but I would still say a player should perhaps start in, or stay in, their best position more often than not. Rashford is a classic case in point - totally ineffective when played on the right, and nowhere near clinical enough through the middle.
