The Footie Thread

[clubchamp98]

Foul on Madueke (and should be a yellow too for the defender)

VAR is completely disgraceful

Yes how can VAR say “ that’s not a foul” really poor.

 

[clubchamp98]

What a footballer Ødegaard is if you give him some space.

Well one of the strikers has turned up.

 

[nickjdavis]

The game is well gone but this could get very messy for Chelsea.

 

[Orikoru]

I'm so annoyed. I was this close to making White my captain in Fantasy but I went for the 'safer' option Saka in the end.

 

[Swango1980]

Please don't get me started on the line-drawing. Without the lines drawn on there - and in 'old money', if you like - he is level, and onside. Why can't someone just eyeball it on the replay and if he's about level he's onside? We used to trust a linesman to eyeball it in real time so he/someone should be able to eyeball it on a slow motion replay. Drawing the lines is just jumping the shark, takes forever, and robs us of what used to be perfectly good goals.

I used to think the exact same thing. No lines, just eyeball it. But, as time goes on and I see fan and media reaction to subjective decisions, getting rid of lines would be carnage.

If you have a marginal offside call, some people will absolutely see it as onside. Others will make a case for it being offside. Often, people will sew what they want to see. The VAR has to make a decision either way, agree with linesman or not. There will be plenty of cases where, for example, no offside is given and VAR agrees. Immediately, memes go on social media where fans have drawn their own lines, it is compared to another similar incident where offside was given, and offside simply becomes another weapon to hammer the officials when they get it wrong.

Furthermore, the lines are calibrated with the camera to ensure they are parallel to goal line. Most camera angles we watch the match on will not be square on to the player who is potentially offside. Hence, by eye, sometimes a player looks a long way onside or offside, and then it turns out we were wrong.

I also thought allowing a tolerance would be a good idea. If there is only a small distance between lines, just go with linesman original decision. But, again, if a goal stands because a player was only a couple of toenails offside and linesman didn't see it, the fans of the side that conceded will be furious

 

[Tashyboy]

It seems a guy called Slot is favourite to, well Slot into Klopp role at Liverpool. Now seeing as the last great manager to come out of Holland was Ten Haag. That’s not gone to well so I wonder what is different about Mr Slot.

Anyone know anything about him.

 

[Tashyboy]

I used to think the exact same thing. No lines, just eyeball it. But, as time goes on and I see fan and media reaction to subjective decisions, getting rid of lines would be carnage.

If you have a marginal offside call, some people will absolutely see it as onside. Others will make a case for it being offside. Often, people will sew what they want to see. The VAR has to make a decision either way, agree with linesman or not. There will be plenty of cases where, for example, no offside is given and VAR agrees. Immediately, memes go on social media where fans have drawn their own lines, it is compared to another similar incident where offside was given, and offside simply becomes another weapon to hammer the officials when they get it wrong.

Furthermore, the lines are calibrated with the camera to ensure they are parallel to goal line. Most camera angles we watch the match on will not be square on to the player who is potentially offside. Hence, by eye, sometimes a player looks a long way onside or offside, and then it turns out we were wrong.

I also thought allowing a tolerance would be a good idea. If there is only a small distance between lines, just go with linesman original decision. But, again, if a goal stands because a player was only a couple of toenails offside and linesman didn't see it, the fans of the side that conceded will be furious

What I don’t understand is. In a 100m final when it is a photo finish you can go through frames it is precise. Re the Coventry off side goal at the weekend, there was suggestions that the Utd defenders foot was off the floor which made the line look iffy. But you have a scenario when his foot is going one way. The attacker is going the other way and the player who has played the ball is making a movement. There is no chance of freezing it frame by frame re when the ball has left the players foot so where is the tolerance. That’s my point. Having said all that. This offside VaR discussion will go on for years under it present guise.

 

[PaulMdj]

What I don’t understand is. In a 100m final when it is a photo finish you can go through frames it is precise. Re the Coventry off side goal at the weekend, there was suggestions that the Utd defenders foot was off the floor which made the line look iffy. But you have a scenario when his foot is going one way. The attacker is going the other way and the player who has played the ball is making a movement. There is no chance of freezing it frame by frame re when the ball has left the players foot so where is the tolerance. That’s my point. Having said all that. This offside VaR discussion will go on for years under it present guise.

100m is no were near as wide as a football pitch and you know exactly were to place the camera as it is only needed in one place, same as horse racing.

Were do you think the camera should be placed on the pitch or do we need hundreds of cameras on the sidelines at every match.

 

[Swango1980]

What I don’t understand is. In a 100m final when it is a photo finish you can go through frames it is precise. Re the Coventry off side goal at the weekend, there was suggestions that the Utd defenders foot was off the floor which made the line look iffy. But you have a scenario when his foot is going one way. The attacker is going the other way and the player who has played the ball is making a movement. There is no chance of freezing it frame by frame re when the ball has left the players foot so where is the tolerance. That’s my point. Having said all that. This offside VaR discussion will go on for years under it present guise.

PaulMdj beat me to it.

100m final the camera is on the line. The line is in a fixed position.

Offside, the players could be anywhere on the half of the pitch. Furthermore both attacker and defender are moving, neither are in a fixed position.

Yes, there is tolerance. But the officials first need to find the frame in which they feel most closely represents the time the pass was played. At that point, the calibrated lines are drawn up, and the offside becomes a factual decision.

The only major screw ups have been the time they drew line on wrong player, and the time they correctly called it onside by communicated it wrongly so offside was given. I don't think I remember any other mistakes, just frustrations when marginal calls are made. But if the opposite decision was made (if a different frame used), the other fans for the team not getting the decision would have exactly the same frustrations.

 

[clubchamp98]

The amount of money in the PL they could have a camera every 12” for the price of an academy player.

 

[Swango1980]

The amount of money in the PL they could have a camera every 12” for the price of an academy player.

That still wouldn't be enough if fans are complaining about toenails

But, they don't need that many cameras, as the lines are calibrated anyway.

 

[clubchamp98]

That still wouldn't be enough if fans are complaining about toenails

But, they don't need that many cameras, as the lines are calibrated anyway.

Yes the tech is very good it’s the numptys using it.

There is no such thing as level now.

If the lines are touching that’s level imo.
Clear grass between them on/ offside.

 

[Orikoru]

I used to think the exact same thing. No lines, just eyeball it. But, as time goes on and I see fan and media reaction to subjective decisions, getting rid of lines would be carnage.

If you have a marginal offside call, some people will absolutely see it as onside. Others will make a case for it being offside. Often, people will sew what they want to see. The VAR has to make a decision either way, agree with linesman or not. There will be plenty of cases where, for example, no offside is given and VAR agrees. Immediately, memes go on social media where fans have drawn their own lines, it is compared to another similar incident where offside was given, and offside simply becomes another weapon to hammer the officials when they get it wrong.

Furthermore, the lines are calibrated with the camera to ensure they are parallel to goal line. Most camera angles we watch the match on will not be square on to the player who is potentially offside. Hence, by eye, sometimes a player looks a long way onside or offside, and then it turns out we were wrong.

I also thought allowing a tolerance would be a good idea. If there is only a small distance between lines, just go with linesman original decision. But, again, if a goal stands because a player was only a couple of toenails offside and linesman didn't see it, the fans of the side that conceded will be furious

If we've learned anything from VAR it's that people will complain no matter what. All that stuff you said happened before VAR and continues to happen now. At least we'd be speeding up the game again and stop disallowing goals when the player was level.

I just want football to be enjoyable again. I kind of miss watching it.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

It seems a guy called Slot is favourite to, well Slot into Klopp role at Liverpool. Now seeing as the last great manager to come out of Holland was Ten Haag. That’s not gone to well so I wonder what is different about Mr Slot.

Anyone know anything about him.

Arne Slot plays a very attacking style and is a manager who will bring through younger players very happily. I think you could almost call him a Dutch version of Klopp. He’s also quite young and he could very well be a good fit and astute appointment just as Klopp was.
If you’ve seen the film Moneyball, you will know how FSG work and the way they rill important positions.
I would think he would be an excellent choice.

 

[Swango1980]

If we've learned anything from VAR it's that people will complain no matter what. All that stuff you said happened before VAR and continues to happen now. At least we'd be speeding up the game again and stop disallowing goals when the player was level.

I just want football to be enjoyable again. I kind of miss watching it.

Lots of mistakes were made pre VAR. Referees didn't give penalties when they should, or vice versa. They'd miss a player punching or stamping on another player, or they'd give a red card for nothing.

There should be no doubt that many mistakes that were made pre VAR simply don't happen now. Problem is, fans expect there to be zero mistakes, which is unrealistic. There might be one or two howlers every month or so, amongst the many things VAR correctly rectified. All the other controversies are based on subjective decisions. So, you can guarantee some fans will be spitting feathers if VAR does not intervene on an incident. But, if it had, there would be fans spitting feathers it got involved at all.

It has ruined the spontaneous nature of football. It has lead to more correct decisions, but at the cost of ruining a lot of the enjoyment that fans have in the moment. I absolutely feel sorry for Coventry for having that moment ruined for them, even though it benefited my team. And, at one point or another, we'll all be on the wrong end of such a call when our team score a last minute winner.

But, VAR won't be scrapped now. Cat is out of the bag. Too much at stake. They just need to find better ways of implementing it, and making it much quicker, especially offsides.

Specialist VAR officials are probably a step forward. There will still be mistakes, and a lot of subjectivity. But, having onfield referees also doing stints in VAR doesn't seem to work too well.

 

[Orikoru]

Lots of mistakes were made pre VAR. Referees didn't give penalties when they should, or vice versa. They'd miss a player punching or stamping on another player, or they'd give a red card for nothing.

There should be no doubt that many mistakes that were made pre VAR simply don't happen now. Problem is, fans expect there to be zero mistakes, which is unrealistic. There might be one or two howlers every month or so, amongst the many things VAR correctly rectified. All the other controversies are based on subjective decisions. So, you can guarantee some fans will be spitting feathers if VAR does not intervene on an incident. But, if it had, there would be fans spitting feathers it got involved at all.

It has ruined the spontaneous nature of football. It has lead to more correct decisions, but at the cost of ruining a lot of the enjoyment that fans have in the moment. I absolutely feel sorry for Coventry for having that moment ruined for them, even though it benefited my team. And, at one point or another, we'll all be on the wrong end of such a call when our team score a last minute winner.

But, VAR won't be scrapped now. Cat is out of the bag. Too much at stake. They just need to find better ways of implementing it, and making it much quicker, especially offsides.

Specialist VAR officials are probably a step forward. There will still be mistakes, and a lot of subjectivity. But, having onfield referees also doing stints in VAR doesn't seem to work too well.

Didn't that still happen to Wily Boly? Getting a red card for nothing? They are getting some more decisions correct but not really a vast amount. Ultimately we're still beholden to the competency of the human beings using it. Considering they're taking 3 or 4 minutes I don't think it was unreasonable for fans to expect next to no mistakes. I think most people's view was it would ruin the free-flowing nature of the game, but that was a worthy compromise for no mistakes. But it's not a good compromise for slightly less mistakes, a broken offside rule and a broken handball rule.

We used to say the ref's had a good game if you don't notice him and he's just quietly got on with it. That's how VAR should've been. Just quietly there in the background to give the ref a bit of help when he needed it. But instead it's become The VAR Show. I agree that it won't ever be scrapped, but they just need to dial it way, way back.

 

[Swango1980]

Didn't that still happen to Wily Boly? Getting a red card for nothing? They are getting some more decisions correct but not really a vast amount. Ultimately we're still beholden to the competency of the human beings using it. Considering they're taking 3 or 4 minutes I don't think it was unreasonable for fans to expect next to no mistakes. I think most people's view was it would ruin the free-flowing nature of the game, but that was a worthy compromise for no mistakes. But it's not a good compromise for slightly less mistakes, a broken offside rule and a broken handball rule.

We used to say the ref's had a good game if you don't notice him and he's just quietly got on with it. That's how VAR should've been. Just quietly there in the background to give the ref a bit of help when he needed it. But instead it's become The VAR Show. I agree that it won't ever be scrapped, but they just need to dial it way, way back.

Yes, it did happen to Boly. As I said, VAR hasn't remedied 100% of wrong decisions, just many of them.

And with Boly, perhaps VAR needs to be reviewed on whether it should get involved in second yellow card incidents. Because, as it stands, Boly being sent off had nothing to do with VAR.

 

[RichA]

PaulMdj beat me to it.

100m final the camera is on the line. The line is in a fixed position.

Offside, the players could be anywhere on the half of the pitch. Furthermore both attacker and defender are moving, neither are in a fixed position.

Yes, there is tolerance. But the officials first need to find the frame in which they feel most closely represents the time the pass was played. At that point, the calibrated lines are drawn up, and the offside becomes a factual decision.

The only major screw ups have been the time they drew line on wrong player, and the time they correctly called it onside by communicated it wrongly so offside was given. I don't think I remember any other mistakes, just frustrations when marginal calls are made. But if the opposite decision was made (if a different frame used), the other fans for the team not getting the decision would have exactly the same frustrations.

I think you're missing the point that @Tashyboy is making, which is something I've thought about before and it's more about tolerances than camera angles...
A sprinting footballer is covering 15cm per 60Hz frame of video, yet VAR is making decisions on millimetres. It makes no sense.

 

[Orikoru]

Yes, it did happen to Boly. As I said, VAR hasn't remedied 100% of wrong decisions, just many of them.

And with Boly, perhaps VAR needs to be reviewed on whether it should get involved in second yellow card incidents. Because, as it stands, Boly being sent off had nothing to do with VAR.

Yep, that's another stupid aspect of it. Why did they bother making rules for when it can't get involved? Can't we just use common sense? I can just picture it now, the VAR operator that watching his screen going "Oh man, the ref's made an absolute howler there - if only I could tell him. Oh well, hands are tied." Just beggars belief how poorly the entire thing has been implemented. Lunatics running the asylum.

 

[PaulMdj]

Didn't that still happen to Wily Boly? Getting a red card for nothing? They are getting some more decisions correct but not really a vast amount. Ultimately we're still beholden to the competency of the human beings using it. Considering they're taking 3 or 4 minutes I don't think it was unreasonable for fans to expect next to no mistakes. I think most people's view was it would ruin the free-flowing nature of the game, but that was a worthy compromise for no mistakes. But it's not a good compromise for slightly less mistakes, a broken offside rule and a broken handball rule.

We used to say the ref's had a good game if you don't notice him and he's just quietly got on with it. That's how VAR should've been. Just quietly there in the background to give the ref a bit of help when he needed it. But instead it's become The VAR Show. I agree that it won't ever be scrapped, but they just need to dial it way, way back.

Boly had nothing to do with VAR, it was a Yellow Card offence that happened to be his 2nd one.

The Referee and Referee alone made the mistake, the only reason VAR gets brought in to it is in the hope they’d of rectified the Referee’s mistake and apart from Yellow Cards are not part of the VAR Remit, this starts creeping in to VAR rereffing the games and lines get blared.