spongebob59
Journeyman Pro
Or about 40 miles in less than a minute ?
The all things EV chat thread
- Thread starter need_my_wedge
- Start date
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Deleted member 30522
Guest
It is to all intents, as it's your power generator.
And current "estimates" are now being disproven by real world lifespan where they're starting to fail at 8 years, 20 years is cloud cuckoo land
PJ87
Journeyman Pro
Toyota are launching a full electric SUV where they guarantee the battery for 10 years with 90% of original charge
Its not cloud cuckoo land , majority of cases will be this however there are cases where it won't be.. that's what makes the news.
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Deleted member 30522
Guest
I have a 10 year old diesel, 110k on the clock, which I've had for 8years, I expect a number of years from it yet until it gives up.
The fact all they'll guarantee is 10 years tells you all you need to know, and you'll pay far more for your EV + replacement battery (or selling a worthless second hand car) than I'll be doing long run.
PJ87
Journeyman Pro
The fact they guarantee it just means their confident in their own product.
In 10 years the cost of replacement battieres is going to drop compared to now
bobmac
Major Champion
So your petrol tank is your engine?
And batteries don't fail, they gradually lose their ability to hold a full charge over a number of years.
Admittedly the first batteries weren't brilliant but the newer batteries are lasting much longer.
And when battery technology takes the next step there will be even less reason to worry
What part of your diesel car is guaranteed for 10 years?
So you have an EV that is 10 years old and can still charge to 90% of its original figure, you would regard that as worthless?
I wonder how many bhp your diesel has lost over the last 10 years.
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Deleted member 30522
Guest
Huh? based on what? They're new, they haven't had the chance to fail yet
bobmac
Major Champion
I said 'newer' not new.
If a battery is 3-4 years old and still has 98% charge left, you can surmise that after 10 years, you'll still have around 95% left.
There are many many clever people around the world who do nothing but work on prolonging the life of batteries, but if you know better than them, give them a call and share your expertise with them.
Did you forget about my question about how much BHP your diesel has lost? because according to you, if it's lost 10%, it makes your car worthless.
Not forgetting my other question...What part of your diesel car is guaranteed for 10 years?
PNWokingham
Journeyman Pro
diesel engines can and often do 400k miles or more and still can run ok. If batteries have a life of only 100 or even 150k, for example, before needing to be replaced, that is a major negative that can put people off and could see the car at 10 years old being worthless if a replacement battery is 10k+
GreiginFife
Money List Winner
I get where you are coming from here Bob, but there is a flaw in this argument that loss of 10% BHP doesn't have the affect on the effective range of a car as much as battery does. The analogue would be a fuel tank that's shrunk 10% of the same time.
Someone with a 150BHP engine that loses 15BHP over 9 or 10 years isn't going to notice much if any effect. Whereas a battery effectively losing 10% of it's capacity to provide energy is going to be noticeable by way of the distance that can be covered before spending money to re-fuel.
We are seeing improvements in batteries - without doubt, although based on my experience of an EV test drive the on Saturday, there's still a lot of "unaccountable" variance in the distribution and usage of that energy. I questioned the dealer on why a journey of no more than 50 miles wiped more than 130 miles off the range "it's just how they work" was pretty much the response.
I'm still keeping my name on the i4 waiting list, but I have to admit now I'm more concerned about the battery (usage rather than life span) than I was before test driving.
road2ruin
Q-School Graduate
I guess the battery issue is going to be more or less of an issue depending on how you are buying the car. I think the figures from a couple of years ago where that 90% of new car purchases were done via finance so for those the battery life is a non issue. In the near future it will be a factor for those who are buying used EV's, looking further into the future the batteries will improve, get smaller whilst having long ranges and probably a long life. There may well be options to have the batteries swapped out without it costing you 25% of the original value of the car!!
GreiginFife
Money List Winner
This is very much me, I seldom keep a car beyond 2 - 2.5 years so battery life is not an issue for me. Battery reliability and stability are far more important.
Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
The problem I'm seeing here is the 2nd, 3rd or 4th hand market..
If an EV costs 40k now, in 10 years it'll be worth about 10k maximum....
If the battery is guaranteed for 10 years and costs circa 10k to replace it means buying an EV of that age looks a massive gamble.
A 10 year old ICE may cost you a few hundred each year in repairs but it'll keep going into the 5th, 6th and 7th hand market as youngster's first cars.
By a 3rd hand EV for, say, 8k and within a year or 2 the battery starts to drop off.......the car is worthless unless they work out a way to refurb batteries cost effectively
The newish used market will be ok...anything 10 years or older...forget it.
Where does that leave those who can't afford a 10k car..and who don't want to gamble on the battery lasting?
I appreciate battery tech is improving but they need get to the point where batteries do last longer than the car
Until then....?
If an EV costs 40k now, in 10 years it'll be worth about 10k maximum....
If the battery is guaranteed for 10 years and costs circa 10k to replace it means buying an EV of that age looks a massive gamble.
A 10 year old ICE may cost you a few hundred each year in repairs but it'll keep going into the 5th, 6th and 7th hand market as youngster's first cars.
By a 3rd hand EV for, say, 8k and within a year or 2 the battery starts to drop off.......the car is worthless unless they work out a way to refurb batteries cost effectively
The newish used market will be ok...anything 10 years or older...forget it.
Where does that leave those who can't afford a 10k car..and who don't want to gamble on the battery lasting?
I appreciate battery tech is improving but they need get to the point where batteries do last longer than the car
Until then....?
road2ruin
Q-School Graduate
My worry about buying an EV at the moment is I am just not sure of the depreciation of it plus they are hideously expensive when compared to their ICE compatriots. I don't want to risk losing a load of cash by being an early(ish) adopter of EV's so mine is being financed and in 4 years time I'll see what the market looks like.
GreiginFife
Money List Winner
Seems that the i4 (which I am plumping for) is estimated to depreciate much in line with the equivalent M440i and M4 variants that they "shadow" (i4 40 S-Drive is M440 performance and i4 M50 is M4 material).
However, the hideous expensive bit is where it takes a turn. i4 M50 specced as I have has a list price of £66,495 (Base is just under £64k). M4 Comp equivalent, £76k before options... So the EV wins that particular fight.
PJ87
Journeyman Pro
I wouldn't worry too much tbh . Did it have % gauge? That's what matters really
For example I had 52% this morning so I didn't bother charging as above 50% I can pre condition so that's all I wanted today .. I know 50% is more than enough for work and back
Now when I got in the car it said 48 miles (45 mile round trip) experience told me what a load of tosh
True enough my 22 mile drive to work it came off saying 32 miles left lol and 34% battery
Then got home 23% battery (23 miles) and 23 miles left .. which then dropped to 18 when it got colder out
But I used less than 30% battery in the cold winter to do 45 miles .. so that's winter range of 150.. (summer 200)
More than happy with that
@road2ruin @Fade and Die octopus btw if you do switch long term and know somebody on it they can give you a link so you get £50 each on your account .. obviously I'd gladly share mine lol but if you know someone with it nudge them and get a free £50 each ?
PJ87
Journeyman Pro
I really think this is will start to resolve by then .. because by 2030 all the last petrol and diesel cars are sold .. so you have what until 2045 before they become the 15 year old car second hand market?
I really think in 10 years these worries will be solved and it will become a real noneissue
road2ruin
Q-School Graduate
Cheers, I will bear that in mind once I finally get delivery although it looks like Bulb (assuming they're still going) have an EV tariff now which is 5.85p/kWh between 2am-6am so that might well be worth a look as I'm already with them.
PJ87
Journeyman Pro
Oh defo that is a brilliant rate .. I'm sticking with octopus as they have a telsa tariff (you can get it if your either a telsa owner or have powerwall plus solar , which is on order) they take over your powerwall and you get a flat 11p for all the electric they take off you and you buy all your electric for 11p.. which is just ridiculous
GreiginFife
Money List Winner
No, it has range in miles, not %. But even then if it said 50% and I don't know what that equates to and I have no idea if it's going to actually achieve/provide it then it's going to make me edgy. 130 miles is c.45% of it's c.295 mile starting point over a distance that's actually only 15% of the indicated capability and no one seemed to be able to pin-point why that was. Of course, I was informed that other people had had better (and some worse) results... Not sure why they thought anecdotes on proving the variability would appease my twanging banjo...
