"Tending the flag" question

[dufferman]

This happened on Sunday:

On the par 4 17th, I chipped on the green and had a lengthy putt for par. I asked my playing partner to tend the flag (which, for my clarification, means he would pull the flag out the hole if the ball goes towards it, right?).

I give this putt some welly, and it's going straight for the hole at some pace. He sees this and doesn't moved the flag, ball hits the flag and drops in. Great.

He then says "lucky that wasn't in competition mate or I'd have had to take the flag out" - which I have two questions:

1) Does he have to take the flag out?
2) If the ball had of hit the flag and NOT gone in the hole, is it just tough luck on my part even though I asked him to tend the flag?

Sorry if this seems a silly question, just trying to expand my knowledge.

 

[chrisd]

Rule 17-3 a

If the ball strikes the attended flagstick its a 2 shot penalty! Loss of hole in matchplay

You play then from where it came to rest

 

[upsidedown]

2 shot penalty for hitting flag. Lost an Open comp by one shot because some muppet couldn't get the flag out of the hole !!

 

[rulefan]

17-3/2
Opponentor Fellow-Competitor Attending Flagstick for Player Fails to Remove It;Player's Ball Strikes Flagstick
Q.A's ball lies on the puttinggreen. A requests B, his opponent or fellow-competitor, to attend theflagstick, and B complies. A putts and B fails to remove the flagstick. A'sball strikes the flagstick. What is the ruling?
A.If B failed to remove theflagstick for the purpose of causing A to incur a penalty, B is disqualified,in both match play and stroke play, under Rule 33-7 for taking an actioncontrary to the spirit of the game. In stroke play, in equity (Rule 1-4), Amust replay the stroke without penalty.
If B'sfailure to remove the flagstick was with the intent to influence the movementof A's ball (e.g., for the purpose of preventing A's ball from going beyond theflagstick), B is in breach of Rule 1-2, and loses the hole in match play orincurs a two-stroke penalty in stroke play, whether the ball strikes theflagstick or not. In stroke play, if the ball struck the flagstick and as aresult A suffered significant advantage or disadvantage, then the Committeecould consider B to have committed a serious breach of Rule 1-2, thepenalty for which is disqualification. Whether or not B has committed aserious breach of Rule 1-2, in stroke play, if A's ball struck the flagstick,in equity (Rule 1-4), A must replay the stroke without penalty - see Note 2to Rule 1-2.
If B's failure to remove the flagstick was not deliberate (e.g., theflagstick stuck in the hole-liner or B was distracted and did not see A putt),since B was acting on A's behalf, A incurs a penalty of loss of hole in matchplay or two strokes in stroke play under Rule 17-3. A must play the ball as itlies. B incurs no penalty. (Revised)

 

[kev_off_the_tee]

I bit of a crappy ruling as A has covered themselves and asked that the flag be tended. It should then be the full responsibility of B to remove it once its agreed. They would have plenty of time to check the flag is able to be removed before player A makes their putt and if they wait until the last second when its too late its their fault for being so stupid. If they don't want the responsibility then don't agree to tend the flag.

I agree that it is already in the rules so have to accept it but its just another rule that should be changed

 

[Phil2511]

2 shot penalty for hitting flag. Lost an Open comp by one shot because some muppet couldn't get the flag out of the hole !!

When asked to tend I always remove the flagstick from its hole and position it at the back of the cup so that it can't get stuck. Wouldn't risk it with some of the folks at my place. They could moan for the World.

 

[ger147]

When asked to tend I always remove the flagstick from its hole and position it at the back of the cup so that it can't get stuck. Wouldn't risk it with some of the folks at my place. They could moan for the World.

I do the same.

Having said that, a FC of mine recently refused my offer to tend the flag but asked me to leave the flag in even though his ball was on the green. After double checking if he was sure I moved away and his birdie putt rattled the flag. He thought it was a 1 stroke penalty but I had my rules book on me and was able to show him it was 2 strokes. Par becomes double, oops!!

 

[rulefan]

I seem to remember seeing Faldo's caddie Fanny, tending the flag in a Ryder Cup match. The flagstick got stuck and she only managed to remove it when the ball was about 18" from the hole. It then ran over the hole. I didn't play golf at the time but I had the impression she was tending the flag for Faldo's opponent. Which strikes me as odd now.

 

[dufferman]

Thank you all for your replies! I thought he was in the wrong - clearly I was!

I do the same.

Having said that, a FC of mine recently refused my offer to tend the flag but asked me to leave the flag in even though his ball was on the green. After double checking if he was sure I moved away and his birdie putt rattled the flag. He thought it was a 1 stroke penalty but I had my rules book on me and was able to show him it was 2 strokes. Par becomes double, oops!!

You mean if you hit the flag from on the green it's a 2 stroke penalty?

 

[Foxholer]

You mean if you hit the flag from on the green it's a 2 stroke penalty?

As per posts 2,3 and 4, Yes!

 

[Sid Rixon IV]

It happened to me recently but only in a friendly.
Opponent tending failed to get flag out and my ball wedged.
I asked my partner "What's the rule?"
His reply "I'll tell you the rule - never ask a bl**dy opponent to tend the flag".

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

2 shot penalty for hitting flag. Lost an Open comp by one shot because some muppet couldn't get the flag out of the hole !!

When I attend the flag first thing I do ask the player what side he'd like me to stand - then I loosen the flag and lift it out of the hole to make sure that this^^^ doesn't happen - replacing it of course before the putt is attempted.

I note that a curious rule is that you do not have to actually be holding the flag to be deemed to be attending it. I don't know the exact wording of the rule - but you only have to be standing within 'touching' distance of the flagstick to be deemed to be attending it.

So if you play up to say within 2 ft and mark and lift your ball, and your FC is off the green and wants flag left in - don't just step a pace or so from the hole whilst your playing partner plays his shot. If his ball hits the flag and you could have touched the flagstick - you are deemed to have been attending the flag and therefore should have removed it. So FC gets 2 shots pen strokeplay or loss of hole matchplay.

Likewise if you don't want it attended, always ask FC to move well away from the flag when you are playing on.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I bit of a crappy ruling as A has covered themselves and asked that the flag be tended. It should then be the full responsibility of B to remove it once its agreed. They would have plenty of time to check the flag is able to be removed before player A makes their putt and if they wait until the last second when its too late its their fault for being so stupid. If they don't want the responsibility then don't agree to tend the flag.

I agree that it is already in the rules so have to accept it but its just another rule that should be changed

It's there to avoid complicity between players as much as anything else I suspect.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I do the same.

Having said that, a FC of mine recently refused my offer to tend the flag but asked me to leave the flag in even though his ball was on the green. After double checking if he was sure I moved away and his birdie putt rattled the flag. He thought it was a 1 stroke penalty but I had my rules book on me and was able to show him it was 2 strokes. Par becomes double, oops!!

One word for your FC - eedjit! (there are many others but that'll do)

 

[DCB]

So if you play up to say within 2 ft and mark and lift your ball, and your FC is off the green and wants flag left in - don't just step a pace or so from the hole whilst your playing partner plays his shot. If his ball hits the flag and you could have touched the flagstick - you are deemed to have been attending the flag and therefore should have removed it. So FC gets 2 shots pen strokeplay or loss of hole matchplay.

No penalty if FC is playing from off the green and the ball hits the flagstick.

 

[mikee247]

Hasn't there been a recent change to the law with regards to tending the flag? .... someone mentioned it to me the other day but I'm unsure what exactly.... You must however have the flag out or tended if you are the putting surface as a minimum as I understand...

Am I right in saying that you can now have the flag tended whether you are on or off the green so theoretically you can have it tended on a par three tee shot for example or even on an approach shot which Ive seen Mickelson do.... people used to say that you cant have it tended off the green which of course is not true....its funny that there so many permutations on tending the flag and people unsure of what the rules are. Could they not make these a little more simpler perhaps?....

 

[dufferman]

Could they not make these a little more simpler perhaps?....

Golf could be SO much easier to understand if the rules were changed... but then it wouldn't be golf would it

 

[Tommo21]

2 shot penalty for hitting flag. Lost an Open comp by one shot because some muppet couldn't get the flag out of the hole !!

And there is the lesson I learned many years ago, it only take some grit or sand and the flag stick can jam. When tending the flag I always take it out, sit it against the bottom edge of the cup, leaning the flag back a little, central to the line of shot.

 

[Foxholer]

Hasn't there been a recent change to the law with regards to tending the flag? .... someone mentioned it to me the other day but I'm unsure what exactly.... You must however have the flag out or tended if you are the putting surface as a minimum as I understand...

Am I right in saying that you can now have the flag tended whether you are on or off the green so theoretically you can have it tended on a par three tee shot for example or even on an approach shot which Ive seen Mickelson do.... people used to say that you cant have it tended off the green which of course is not true....its funny that there so many permutations on tending the flag and people unsure of what the rules are. Could they not make these a little more simpler perhaps?....

You have always been able to have the Flagstick attended or held up - at least, since 1952 when Putting Greens were defines (ealier, it was within 20 yards of hole).

No need to have Flagstick attended or removed when on the green, but risk a 2 shot penalty if it is hit.

Latest change relating to Flagstick was in 2008, when it also became permssable to move a Flagstick that is removed or held up - though not one left in the hole.

 

[dufferman]

So here's a scenario - the flag is left in, the putt is made and the ball trickles to the hole and goes in, only touching / knocking the flag stick once in the hole. Does that count as a 2 shot penalty or not?