Wrong Green?

Swango1980

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Scenario: flag is on temporary green, essentially the fringe of main green. The hole is actually only about a yard in front of the main green. If a players ball just rolls past the flag, on onto the main green, leaving them a 4 or 5 foot putt, must they take relief off the main green?

If the answer to the above is Yes, is this true if the main green is a double green, with the other hole in play on that green?
 

woofers

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The answer is Yes.
If the main green is a double green consult the local rules, there is an option to treat them as divided, separate greens requiring relief under 13.1f, however at St Andrews I understand that the double greens are treated as a single putting surface.
 

rulefan

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The answer is Yes.
If the main green is a double green consult the local rules, there is an option to treat them as divided, separate greens requiring relief under 13.1f, however at St Andrews I understand that the double greens are treated as a single putting surface.
But both would still be wrong greens.
 

woofers

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But both would still be wrong greens.
From the Rules of Golf - Definitions - Putting Green :

If a double green is used for two different holes:
  • The entire prepared area containing both holes is treated as the putting green when playing each hole.
  • But the Committee may define an edge that divides the double green into two different putting greens, so that when a player is playing one of the holes, the part of the double green for the other hole is a wrong green.
 

Colin L

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From the Rules of Golf - Definitions - Putting Green :

If a double green is used for two different holes:
  • The entire prepared area containing both holes is treated as the putting green when playing each hole.
  • But the Committee may define an edge that divides the double green into two different putting greens, so that when a player is playing one of the holes, the part of the double green for the other hole is a wrong green.
In terms of there being a temporary green in play, whether the double green is divided or not is irrelevant. The temporary green is being used for the hole being played. Any other putting green on the course is a wrong green.
 

salfordlad

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In terms of there being a temporary green in play, whether the double green is divided or not is irrelevant. The temporary green is being used for the hole being played. Any other putting green on the course is a wrong green.
True if the temporary green and original green are separated either in fact or by local rule. But I have seen a temp green area that overlaps an existing green to direct traffic away from a problem part of the original green that is being worked on. That is, the current green in use contains part of the original and a temporary part. The OPs information doesn't tell us whether the two parts are separate or not and the answer depends on this information.
 

rulie

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True if the temporary green and original green are separated either in fact or by local rule. But I have seen a temp green area that overlaps an existing green to direct traffic away from a problem part of the original green that is being worked on. That is, the current green in use contains part of the original and a temporary part. The OPs information doesn't tell us whether the two parts are separate or not and the answer depends on this information.
From the original post: Scenario: flag is on temporary green, essentially the fringe of main green. The hole is actually only about a yard in front of the main green. ;)
 

Colin L

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What I said is correct even if the temporary green includes ground which is normally part of the main green. A ball on that bit of ground is on the temporary green. A ball that is on the area of the main green outside the temporary green is on a wrong green. It would make no difference if the main green were a double one.

As I see it, in salfordlad's illustration there would only be a problem if there were a failure by the Committee to define or have marked the perimeter of the temporary putting green (and as I see it, the only way to delineate that part of the temporary green which is on the main green would be painted line). Without a definition of the perimeter of a temporary putting green or its being marked, there is no temporary green. It does not exist. That situation would be the result of a Committee failure and would raise different questions to the ones asked by the OP. I doubt if it helps him to go into that.
 

backwoodsman

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Can a temporary green completely surround, but not include, a real (ie wrong) green?



I'm thinking of a temp green being on the front fringe - but where, as is normal, the fringe extends all the way round the green proper (and where there 'temp green' has no specific markings to define it)
 

rulefan

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Can a temporary green completely surround, but not include, a real (ie wrong) green?



I'm thinking of a temp green being on the front fringe - but where, as is normal, the fringe extends all the way round the green proper (and where there 'temp green' has no specific markings to define it)
In theory, yes. But unless the committee clearly identifies the temporary green (with a white line say) they will cause all sorts of problems for themselves.

An additional issue is - Can a player putt from the far fringe over the normal green surface?
 

Colin L

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Can a temporary green completely surround, but not include, a real (ie wrong) green?
I'm thinking of a temp green being on the front fringe - but where, as is normal, the fringe extends all the way round the green proper (and where there 'temp green' has no specific markings to define it)

That's taking things too far! If you have that sort of thought in mind I suggest you cut back on whatever it is you're on that gives you such thoughts. 😃
 

salfordlad

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From the original post: Scenario: flag is on temporary green, essentially the fringe of main green. The hole is actually only about a yard in front of the main green. ;)
Precisely. We are not told whether that one metre of temp green between the hole and the main green is cut to green height. If so, the temp green and the original green are contiguous and represent one green in total, unless a local rule declares otherwise.
 

Swango1980

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Precisely. We are not told whether that one metre of temp green between the hole and the main green is cut to green height. If so, the temp green and the original green are contiguous and represent one green in total, unless a local rule declares otherwise.
It was fringe height, as it was on the fringe.
 

Swango1980

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In theory, yes. But unless the committee clearly identifies the temporary green (with a white line say) they will cause all sorts of problems for themselves.

An additional issue is - Can a player putt from the far fringe over the normal green surface?
In this case, no white line. The decision to put on a temporary green would have been done quickly in the morning, due to conditions. 4 temps on course, including this hole. Nature of this short hole, the temp green is simply put on fringe. Green staff don't tend to paint markings for these sort of temp situations.
 

rulefan

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In this case, no white line. The decision to put on a temporary green would have been done quickly in the morning, due to conditions. 4 temps on course, including this hole. Nature of this short hole, the temp green is simply put on fringe. Green staff don't tend to paint markings for these sort of temp situations.
Perhaps someone should tell them. It's not an unusual situation.
But a LR could help. Hole in fringe, putting surface = wrong green
 

Colin L

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In this case, no white line. The decision to put on a temporary green would have been done quickly in the morning, due to conditions. 4 temps on course, including this hole. Nature of this short hole, the temp green is simply put on fringe. Green staff don't tend to paint markings for these sort of temp situations.

Understandably so. A temporary green can, however, be defined by physical features on the ground and "fringe" or "apron" is to my mind an adequate description of a temporary green provided the difference between the fringe, the green and the ground outside it is visible. Sounds as if your temporary green does therefore surround the main green and I must withdraw my scurrilous suggestion that backwoodsman must be on something even to think of such a thing. ☺️

I'm sure rulefan knows the answer to his question about putting across a wrong green, but for completion, the answer is yes you can, provided neither ball or foot is touching the wrong green when you play.
 
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jim8flog

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I would go with both being separate greens and relief for wrong green must be taken.

Worth remembering the rules now include stance on a wrong green and to check the local rules

D3 denies relief for stance
D4 includes the fringe as part of a wrong green
 

backwoodsman

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That's taking things too far! If you have that sort of thought in mind I suggest you cut back on whatever it is you're on that gives you such thoughts. 😃
:):)

However ... our temporary greens are always on the front fringe. And of course, the fringe always goes right round the green.

Given that the front, back and side fringes are identical and contiguous, I asked the then Chair of H&C where the temp green ended - did it in fact go right round the green. His reply was "Hmm, hadn't thought about that... " So, for a while the temp greens were marked by white line. But we seem to have slipped back again.
 
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