"Tending the flag" question

[DCB]

Yes, penalty due as the ball is not holed until it comes to rest at the bottom of the cup.

 

[palindromicbob]

So here's a scenario - the flag is left in, the putt is made and the ball trickles to the hole and goes in, only touching / knocking the flag stick once in the hole. Does that count as a 2 shot penalty or not?

Yes, penalty due as the ball is not holed until it comes to rest at the bottom of the cup.

DCB correct that it is a penalty but wrong in your definition of a holed ball. The only reason I want to correct you is because I have seen someone holed out from a chip and then removed the ball by pulling out the flag. One of the FC's argued that the ball hadn't been holed because it was held from the bottom of the cup by the flag. It was, however, at rest and below the level of the lip. Prevented a bit of an argument by showing the FC the definition. Not uncommon either as a similar incident has been on here recently.

Definition:
A ball is "holed" when it is at rest within the circumference of the hole and all of it is below the level of the lip of the hole.

So for Dufferman, yup penalty applies. The ball couldn't have met both criteria of a holed ball (at rest and below the level of the lip) if it touched the flag.

 

[Foxholer]

So for Dufferman, yup penalty applies. The ball couldn't have met both criteria of a holed ball (at rest and below the level of the lip) if it touched the flag.

No reason why it can't.

 

[palindromicbob]

No reason why it can't.

I see what you are getting at bad wording on my part replace if with when should sort it.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

No penalty if FC is playing from off the green and the ball hits the flagstick.

Unless you are having the flagstick attended - hence the curious nature of the point I am making.

If you are off the green and ask for the flagstick to be attended then it has to be removed after the ball has been struck - because when attended if the ball hits the flagstick then player the will incur the penalty. That is what I have always understood.

However it was only fairly recently when reading rules carefuilly that I realised that the very act of standing within 'touching' distance of the flagstick deems that player to be attending the flag - whether the other player has asked for it to be attended or not. And so, again, and in these circumstances - even although the player in proximity to the flag is not actually holding it and has not been asked to attend it - if a ball played from off of the green hits the flagstick then the player who played the shot will incur the penalty.

 

[Foxholer]

I see what you are getting at bad wording on my part. Yes the ball can touch the flag and be classed as holed but unfortunately the penalty applies in the situation Dufferman describes. It couldn't avoid the penalty just because the touch of the flag happens after the ball is in the hole and I assume he also means below the level of the lip.

Yes, penalty still applies - that was part of the scenario. 24-1 (Moveable Obstructions) doesn't limit the breach to 'un-holed' balls,

 

[palindromicbob]

Yes, penalty still applies - that was part of the scenario. 24-1 (Moveable Obstructions) doesn't limit the breach to 'un-holed' balls,

Now you've lost me. Why are you pulling 24-1 into this scenario?

 

[Foxholer]

Now you've lost me. Why are you pulling 24-1 into this scenario?

Oops! yes 17-3. I was looking a 24-1 for the 2008 change and had a hand-eye problem!

 

[rulefan]

No penalty if FC is playing from off the green and the ball hits the flagstick.

It matters not whether the ball is on the green if the flagstick is being attended.
17-3. Ball Striking Flagstick Or Attendant

The player’s ball must not strike:
a. The flagstick when it is attended, removed or held up;
b. The person attending or holding up the flagstick or anything carried by him; or
c. The flagstick in the hole, unattended, when the stroke has been made on the putting green.

Exception: When the flagstick is attended, removed or held up without the player’s authority – see Rule 17-2.

 

[upsidedown]

And there is the lesson I learned many years ago, it only take some grit or sand and the flag stick can jam. When tending the flag I always take it out, sit it against the bottom edge of the cup, leaning the flag back a little, central to the line of shot.

When I attend the flag first thing I do ask the player what side he'd like me to stand - then I loosen the flag and lift it out of the hole to make sure that this^^^ doesn't happen - replacing it of course before the putt is attempted.

When asked to tend I always remove the flagstick from its hole and position it at the back of the cup so that it can't get stuck. Wouldn't risk it with some of the folks at my place. They could moan for the World.

All good advice there. Once his ears stopped bleeding from my rant he fully understood how he should attend the flag in the future.

I pull the pin out and grab the flag to stop it fluttering then stand on the side where there is least shadow and not on anybodies line and hold the pin lightly in the hole.

 

[rulefan]

Now you've lost me. Why are you pulling 24-1 into this scenario?

For this ?

When a ball is in motion, an Obstruction that might influence the movement of the ball, other than Equipment of any player or the Flagstick when attended, removed or held up, must not be moved.

 

[Colin L]

So here's a scenario - the flag is left in, the putt is made and the ball trickles to the hole and goes in, only touching / knocking the flag stick once in the hole. Does that count as a 2 shot penalty or not?

It's not possible for the ball to get below the rim of the hole without touching the flagstick. See Decision 17-3/1
http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-17/#17-3/1

 

[DCB]

No penalty if FC is playing from off the green and the ball hits the flagstick.

It matters not whether the ball is on the green if the flagstick is being attended.
17-3. Ball Striking Flagstick Or Attendant

The player’s ball must not strike:
a. The flagstick when it is attended, removed or held up;
b. The person attending or holding up the flagstick or anything carried by him; or
c. The flagstick in the hole, unattended, when the stroke has been made on the putting green.

Exception: When the flagstick is attended, removed or held up without the player’s authority – see Rule 17-2.

I realise that, but in the OP that I responded to the FC asked for the flag to be left in . So, the flag was not tended.

 

[guest100718]

When I attend the flag first thing I do ask the player what side he'd like me to stand - then I loosen the flag and lift it out of the hole to make sure that this^^^ doesn't happen - replacing it of course before the putt is attempted.

I note that a curious rule is that you do not have to actually be holding the flag to be deemed to be attending it. I don't know the exact wording of the rule - but you only have to be standing within 'touching' distance of the flagstick to be deemed to be attending it.

So if you play up to say within 2 ft and mark and lift your ball, and your FC is off the green and wants flag left in - don't just step a pace or so from the hole whilst your playing partner plays his shot. If his ball hits the flag and you could have touched the flagstick - you are deemed to have been attending the flag and therefore should have removed it. So FC gets 2 shots pen strokeplay or loss of hole matchplay.

Likewise if you don't want it attended, always ask FC to move well away from the flag when you are playing on.

Made up BS as far as I can see.

 

[Colin L]

I realise that, but in the OP that I responded to the FC asked for the flag to be left in . So, the flag was not tended.

In the OP I read, the player asked for the flag to be tended.

 

[Imurg]

Slight left turn here but.....

How many times have you holed out from, say, 6-8 inches and retrieved your ball before it's stopped moving in the cup?
You see it every week on the TV - someone holes out from close range and within a second they're reaching for the ball - it can't have come to rest in that amount of time unless they have foam bases!!

 

[Foxholer]

Made up BS as far as I can see.

17-1 - Flagstick Attended, Removed or Held Up
.
.
Note 1: If the flagstick is in the hole and anyone stands near it while a stroke is being made, he is deemed to be attending the flagstick.

Should have gone to Specsavers?

 

[DCB]

In the OP I read, the player asked for the flag to be tended.

I was responding to post no12 in that reply.

 

[Colin L]

I was responding to post no12 in that reply.

Ah. I was being too literal in taking opening post to mean the first one in the thread

 

[Colin L]

Slight left turn here but.....

How many times have you holed out from, say, 6-8 inches and retrieved your ball before it's stopped moving in the cup?
You see it every week on the TV - someone holes out from close range and within a second they're reaching for the ball - it can't have come to rest in that amount of time unless they have foam bases!!

As long as the ball didn't bounce out, that's all right. See Decision 16/5.5

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-16/#16/5.5