putting an improperly replaced ball on the green

[Ricknew]

Trying to find a clarification on a green incident. After marking my ball on the side to give another player a clearer path on his putt, I improperly replaced the ball in front of the mark and made the putt. After teeing off on the next tee a competitor asked me if I replaced the ball on the side. I said I don't thinkI did. What is the penalty here and how should it have been handled. Thanks

 

[rulie]

Trying to find a clarification on a green incident. After marking my ball on the side to give another player a clearer path on his putt, I improperly replaced the ball in front of the mark and made the putt. After teeing off on the next tee a competitor asked me if I replaced the ball on the side. I said I don't thinkI did. What is the penalty here and how should it have been handled. Thanks

In stroke play, it is a two stroke penalty for playing from a wrong place (Rule 14.7), applied to the hole at which it occurred. In match play, it would be loss of that hole.

 

[KenL]

In stroke play, it is a two stroke penalty for playing from a wrong place (Rule 14.7), applied to the hole at which it occurred. In match play, it would be loss of that hole.

Do you not need to go back and correct the error before teeing off at the next hole?

 

[Slab]

Do you not need to go back and correct the error before teeing off at the next hole?

Reading 14.7 it looks like it all depends on whether its a serious breach or not a serious breach as to whether it must be corrected before teeing off on next hole
(serious breach being one where player could have gained a significant advantage by playing from a wrong place)

I guess Rulie is saying a ball played to the side of its original position on putting green isn't a serious breach (significant advantage) So its just the general penalty (+2)

 

[KenL]

That's sensible, thanks.

 

[rulie]

Reading 14.7 it looks like it all depends on whether its a serious breach or not a serious breach as to whether it must be corrected before teeing off on next hole
(serious breach being one where player could have gained a significant advantage by playing from a wrong place)

I guess Rulie is saying a ball played to the side of its original position on putting green isn't a serious breach (significant advantage) So its just the general penalty (+2)

Correct - no significant advantage gained by the playing from a wrong place. The two penalty strokes are sufficient. If there was a serious breach (a significant advantage over playing from the right place), the player would still get the two penalty strokes and would need to correct by playing from the right place.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Does what happened to Lexi Thompson some years back when she did same as OP incident still apply. She got a two shot penalty for playing from wrong place, plus a further two shot penalty for signing for a wrong score as she didn’t correct and take the two shot penalty before signing her card.

I know (think) the 2nd penalty doesn’t apply in OP scenario as the 1st penalty was applied before the card was signed and submitted. Though reading the OP description it’s not clear if the two shot penalty was added before the card was signed.

 

[Steven Rules]

Exception to 3.3b(3) Failure to Include Unknown Penalty

If one or more of the player’s hole scores are lower than the actual scores because they excluded one or more penalty strokes that the player did not know about before returning the scorecard:

*The player is not disqualified.

*Instead, if the mistake is found before the close of the competition, the Committee will revise the player’s score for that hole or holes by adding the penalty stroke(s) that should have been included in the score for that hole or holes under the Rules.

This exception does not apply:

*When the excluded penalty is disqualification, or

*When the player was told that a penalty might apply or was uncertain whether a penalty applied and did not raise this with the Committee before returning the scorecard.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Exception to 3.3b(3) Failure to Include Unknown Penalty

If one or more of the player’s hole scores are lower than the actual scores because they excluded one or more penalty strokes that the player did not know about before returning the scorecard:

*The player is not disqualified.

*Instead, if the mistake is found before the close of the competition, the Committee will revise the player’s score for that hole or holes by adding the penalty stroke(s) that should have been included in the score for that hole or holes under the Rules.

This exception does not apply:

*When the excluded penalty is disqualification, or

*When the player was told that a penalty might apply or was uncertain whether a penalty applied and did not raise this with the Committee before returning the scorecard.

The rules must have been changed after the Lexi Thompson incident. Her mistake was picked up by a TV viewer and reported - Thompson and the organisers did not know of what had happened and that a penalty should be applied to her score until after she had signed her card.

 

[salfordlad]

The rules must have been changed after the Lexi Thompson incident. Her mistake was picked up by a TV viewer and reported - Thompson and the organisers did not know of what had happened and that a penalty should be applied to her score until after she had signed her card.

The putting green rules are so much friendlier now, thanks to the very public problems of DJ, Lexi and Billy Horschel putting (oops) the blow torch on RBs.

Now if we can just get more simplicity in the presentation of balls bumping into various things on the green ...

 

[Colin L]

The putting green rules are so much friendlier now, thanks to the very public problems of DJ, Lexi and Billy Horschel putting (oops) the blow torch on RBs.

Now if we can just get more simplicity in the presentation of balls bumping into various things on the green ...

Ah yes. Back to the good old simple days of 2019.

 

[Deleted member 23344]

A suggestion … always use a one sided marker and, when moving your ball to the side, place the marker with the blank side uppermost. Then, when returning to place your ball, the upturned marker will remind you.

 

[salfordlad]

Ah yes. Back to the good old simple days of 2019.

There's some truth in that. Have you found anyone that is happy about the 2023 layout?

 

[effayjay]

In a stroke play round Player A chips onto the green and then returns to his bag to collect his putter. Unbeknown to Player A, and without informing him, Player B marks Player A’s ball to enable Player B to play. Player A’s ball is dropped on the green a few feet away. Player B puts out. Player A then plays his own ball without knowing it has been moved. What is the ruling in these circumstances?

 

[salfordlad]

In a stroke play round Player A chips onto the green and then returns to his bag to collect his putter. Unbeknown to Player A, and without informing him, Player B marks Player A’s ball to enable Player B to play. Player A’s ball is dropped on the green a few feet away. Player B puts out. Player A then plays his own ball without knowing it has been moved. What is the ruling in these circumstances?

Answer depends on the timing of becoming aware of the facts.

Assuming A becomes aware after playing his ball and before hitting off the next tee, A must correct the mistake by replacing the ball on the correct (estimated) spot and finishing the hole correctly. Even though A has, technically, played a wrong ball (a ball that was not in play), there is no penalty when A was unaware it had been marked and moved to the side. Any strokes with the wrong ball do not count. This scenario receives the same rules treatment as is explained fully in Clarification 9.6/4.

If A only becomes aware after hitting from the next tee, the score counts (again, no penalty).

Player B needs to lift their game.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Answer depends on the timing of becoming aware of the facts.

Assuming A becomes aware after playing his ball and before hitting off the next tee, A must correct the mistake by replacing the ball on the correct (estimated) spot and finishing the hole correctly. Even though A has, technically, played a wrong ball (a ball that was not in play), there is no penalty when A was unaware it had been marked and moved to the side. Any strokes with the wrong ball do not count. This scenario receives the same rules treatment as is explained fully in Clarification 9.6/4.

If A only becomes aware after hitting from the next tee, the score counts (again, no penalty).

Player B needs to lift their game.

…are there also not some circumstance where a sanction is applied to a player (or side) if the player marks and lifts another’s ball without that player’s prior approval (which would also obviously cover the player actually not knowing his ball position had been marked and ball lifted). Though I may be misremembering this from a previous discussion.

ETA…important word not missed out now added… Doesn’t change @Steven Rules commentary on my question.

 

[Steven Rules]

Ah yes. My pet 'soapbox' rule. Ignored/overlooked way too often for my liking.

14.1b

Who May Lift Ball​

The player’s ball may be lifted under the Rules only by:

• The player, or
• Anyone the player authorizes, but such authorization must be given each time before the ball is lifted rather than given generally for the round.

…are there also not some circumstance where a sanction is applied to a player (or side) if the player marks and lifts another’s ball without that player’s prior approval (which would also obviously cover the player actually knowing his ball position had been marked and ball lifted). Though I may be misremembering this from a previous discussion.

There is no sanction in stroke play. (sigh)

In match play if the opponent lifts or deliberately touches the player’s ball at rest or causes it to move, the opponent gets one penalty stroke. There are exceptions - including if the ball is lifted at the player's request - but I won't go into all of them here. (Rule 9.5b)

 

[Steven Rules]

Player B needs to lift their game.

Yes.