Relief from immovable obstruction

[Pants]

Played a par 3 today where a cart path ran along the right hand side. As luck would have it my ball ended up close to the right hand side of the path so free relief (local rule) would have been to the right of the path. Immediately right of the path ran a (approx) 1.5M wide ditch marked as a penalty area with red stakes with rubbish to the right of that (playable but obviously not "nicest" point of relief ). Bit of a brain f@rt on this one regarding dropping options.

As none of us could work out the correct course of action, I played it as it lay.

TIA

 

[salfordlad]

There is a relief entitlement under Rule 16. Step one is to find the Nearest Point of Complete Relief (for the stroke that would be made if the cart path were not there), and in this case that must be in the general area. On this description of the lay of the land, that is likely to be on the left of the cart path, unless the cart path is much wider than the penalty area. It is difficult to be definitive without seeing it, but seems highly likely here the that relief area based on NPCR was to the left of the path. But there is nothing wrong with playing as lies.

 

[Pants]

There is a relief entitlement under Rule 16. Step one is to find the Nearest Point of Complete Relief (for the stroke that would be made if the cart path were not there), and in this case that must be in the general area. On this description of the lay of the land, that is likely to be on the left of the cart path, unless the cart path is much wider than the penalty area. It is difficult to be definitive without seeing it, but seems highly likely here the that relief area based on NPCR was to the left of the path. But there is nothing wrong with playing as lies.

Thank you @salfordlad The NPCR would then have been to the left of the cart path as you surmise. I suppose that it might have been a measure for a lefty though . (Yes. We did have one of those in the group lol)

 

[salfordlad]

Thank you @salfordlad The NPCR would then have been to the left of the cart path as you surmise. I suppose that it might have been a measure for a lefty though . (Yes. We did have one of those in the group lol)

For sure, ball on cart path can produce different sides for the relief area reference point, NPCR, for a lefty or righty, even in your less common scenario of PA next to one side of the path. And the "advanced" issue, that not many clubland golfers appreciate, is the club selection from the original ball position (for the stroke that would have been made if the relief condition were not there) can also occasionally have a critical influence on which side the NPCR is.

 

[rulie]

For sure, ball on cart path can produce different sides for the relief area reference point, NPCR, for a lefty or righty, even in your less common scenario of PA next to one side of the path. And the "advanced" issue, that not many clubland golfers appreciate, is the club selection from the original ball position (for the stroke that would have been made if the relief condition were not there) can also occasionally have a critical influence on which side the NPCR is.

And one further thing about this particular situation - for a left-hander, the nearest point of complete relief from the cart path is only for the ball. The fact that the player would have to stand in the penalty area to make the stroke is not relevant - that's still the nearest point of complete relief from the cart path. A good referee marking the course would recognize that possibility and paint the penalty area line as near as possible to the cart path without getting any paint on the cart path itself.

 

[salfordlad]

And one further thing about this particular situation - for a left-hander, the nearest point of complete relief from the cart path is only for the ball. The fact that the player would have to stand in the penalty area to make the stroke is not relevant - that's still the nearest point of complete relief from the cart path. A good referee marking the course would recognize that possibility and paint the penalty area line as near as possible to the cart path without getting any paint on the cart path itself.

I appreciate the points you are making, but in the OP the path is on the right and the PA further right again, so Mr Lefty would not need to stand in the PA if NPCR is to the right of the PA.

 

[rulie]

I appreciate the points you are making, but in the OP the path is on the right and the PA further right again, so Mr Lefty would not need to stand in the PA if NPCR is to the right of the PA.

Obviously it depends on the distance between the right side of the cart path and the start of the penalty area that is on the right side of the cart path.

 

[rulefan]

Obviously it depends on the distance between the right side of the cart path and the start of the penalty area that is on the right side of the cart path.

What about the width of the PA?

 

[rulie]

What about the width of the PA?

OP said PA was 1.5m wide.

 

[Pants]

And one further thing about this particular situation - for a left-hander, the nearest point of complete relief from the cart path is only for the ball. The fact that the player would have to stand in the penalty area to make the stroke is not relevant - that's still the nearest point of complete relief from the cart path. A good referee marking the course would recognize that possibility and paint the penalty area line as near as possible to the cart path without getting any paint on the cart path itself.

Sorry Rulie but just trying to get this clear in my mind. Are you saying that if there were a strip of general area between the path and the PA, then if the NPCR was on that strip then the leftie (or rightie if everything was reversed) could/would drop there and play the next shot whilst standing in the PA - however impractical/impossible that might be?

 

[doublebogey7]

Sorry Rulie but just trying to get this clear in my mind. Are you saying that if there were a strip of general area between the path and the PA, then if the NPCR was on that strip then the leftie (or rightie if everything was reversed) could/would drop there and play the next shot whilst standing in the PA - however impractical/impossible that might be?

That is correct.

 

[rulie]

That is correct.

Agreed. At that point, the player no longer has interference by the cart path, which is what he was entitled to do.

 

[Pants]

Thanks all

If I remember, next time I play the course I'll take a piccie.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Using this discussion as a means for clarification as my question is very closely related.

We have a maintenance track running down RHS or hole. Immediately beyond the track (further right) the Out of Bounds runs the length of the hole. The OoB line is no more than 18” from the right hand edge of the track.

To take the free relief that is afforded it is possible to stand off the track in the 18” but then the almost complete relief area is OoB and there is nowhere in bounds to drop a ball in a place that I can then take a stance off the track. My guidance is always that this fact means that if relief is taken it can (only) be the fairway side of the track.

Correct?

 

[rulefan]

Correct.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Correct.

Thought so. If you know it can you able to point me to the appropriate rule or clarification as I couldn’t find it myself.

 

[rulefan]

Thought so. If you know it can you able to point me to the appropriate rule or clarification as I couldn’t find it myself.

16.1b

 

[salfordlad]

Using this discussion as a means for clarification as my question is very closely related.

We have a maintenance track running down RHS or hole. Immediately beyond the track (further right) the Out of Bounds runs the length of the hole. The OoB line is no more than 18” from the right hand edge of the track.

To take the free relief that is afforded it is possible to stand off the track in the 18” but then the almost complete relief area is OoB and there is nowhere in bounds to drop a ball in a place that I can then take a stance off the track. My guidance is always that this fact means that if relief is taken it can (only) be the fairway side of the track.

Correct?

Highly likely to be correct for a RH player, but likely not be correct for a LH player who may need to drop in that 18" space and then the ball would be in play. They only get relief from the cart path and taking relief may leave them with an unplayable stroke all tangled up with the OOB fence.
This is why, earlier, it was pointed out that the smarter course marking would put the PA or OOB line right on the edge of the maintenance track - to avoid this course marking driven inequality between RH and LH players.

 

[rulefan]

Highly likely to be correct for a RH player, but likely not be correct for a LH player who may need to drop in that 18" space and then the ball would be in play. They only get relief from the cart path and taking relief may leave them with an unplayable stroke all tangled up with the OOB fence.
This is why, earlier, it was pointed out that the smarter course marking would put the PA or OOB line right on the edge of the maintenance track - to avoid this course marking driven inequality between RH and LH players.

Re LH player.
Even with 18", if the players feet were still on the path, the ball could not be dropped in the general area. So the npcr would be on the other side of the path.

But I do agree with your last paragraph.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Highly likely to be correct for a RH player, but likely not be correct for a LH player who may need to drop in that 18" space and then the ball would be in play. They only get relief from the cart path and taking relief may leave them with an unplayable stroke all tangled up with the OOB fence.
This is why, earlier, it was pointed out that the smarter course marking would put the PA or OOB line right on the edge of the maintenance track - to avoid this course marking driven inequality between RH and LH players.

OKaaay...yes the Left-Hander could drop in the 18" strip but he is not going to be able to take a stance 'in bounds' to determine his NPR. Of course common sense is going to make what might well be the NPR pretty obvious - but do you not have to formally take a stance to actually properly determine it - we don't just guess our NPR as that implies there could be many - and there can only be one.