Relief from immovable obstruction

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Re LH player.
Even with 18", if the players feet were still on the path, the ball could not be dropped in the general area. So the npcr would be on the other side of the path.

But I do agree with your last paragraph.

The direction of play means the LHers feet would not be on the track - but as you say the option of him playing backwards after dropping on the 18" strip would still see him standing on the track.

I'll add that my argument for keeping the track 'in bounds' is that the area between the fairway and the track is filled with mature trees - to a depth of maybe 6-10yds between 1st cut rough and track. As a result actually taking relief from the track may not be the players best option given his NPR may find him having to play a shot blocked by trees - when his shot off the track may have a clearer line back to the fairway.

 

[Neilds]

OKaaay...yes the Left-Hander could drop in the 18" strip but he is not going to be able to take a stance 'in bounds' to determine his NPR. Of course common sense is going to make what might well be the NPR pretty obvious - but do you not have to formally take a stance to actually properly determine it - we don't just guess our NPR as that implies there could be many - and there can only be one.

I thought you could stand OOB? As long as the ball is completely in play?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I thought you could stand OOB? As long as the ball is completely in play?

In which case the RH could stand out of bounds to drop in the 18" strip...OK he'd have to be playing a shot back down the hole - but hey. As it happens standing OoB would be very difficult due to horrid prickly stuff and the proximity of the course boundary fence - which is maybe only 3ft from the OoB posts,

 

[Pants]

Using this discussion as a means for clarification as my question is very closely related.

We have a maintenance track running down RHS or hole. Immediately beyond the track (further right) the Out of Bounds runs the length of the hole. The OoB line is no more than 18” from the right hand edge of the track.

To take the free relief that is afforded it is possible to stand off the track in the 18” but then the almost complete relief area is OoB and there is nowhere in bounds to drop a ball in a place that I can then take a stance off the track. My guidance is always that this fact means that if relief is taken it can (only) be the fairway side of the track.

Correct?

The 4th at Rochester and Cobham had exactly this scenario and eventually arranged course markings so that relief was on the fairway side.

 

[salfordlad]

Re LH player.
Even with 18", if the players feet were still on the path, the ball could not be dropped in the general area. So the npcr would be on the other side of the path.

But I do agree with your last paragraph.

A LH player, taking relief for a LH stroke from the path, will be required to drop in that 18" area as it will include the (available) relief area and the ball would be in play. The player then faces a completely different set of facts, including the likelihood of no possibility of playing a LH stroke towards the green, but that ball is in play.

 

[D-S]

A LH player, taking relief for a LH stroke from the path, will be required to drop in that 18" area as it will include the (available) relief area and the ball would be in play. The player then faces a completely different set of facts, including the likelihood of no possibility of playing a LH stroke towards the green, but that ball is in play.

But what if the LH drops the ball in the 18” but the OB line, fence or wall prohibits him from taking a stance?

 

[Swango1980]

But what if the LH drops the ball in the 18” but the OB line, fence or wall prohibits him from taking a stance?

Too bad unfortunately, I think that was the point that was being clarified?

The player is wanting to take free relief from the path. So the nearest point of complete relief will be the closest point they can drop the ball where the path does not interfere with their swing (including stance).

For the left hander, that nearest point could be the 18 inch thick line of the course next to the OB. If the boundary hinders their stance, that is too bad. They may need to take unplayable or play off the path.

 

[Pants]

But what if the LH drops the ball in the 18” but the OB line, fence or wall prohibits him from taking a stance?

Am I right in thinking that in this scenario the leftie could rightly claim that the only way they could play the shot would be right handed. They would then be standing on the path and could get relief and drop on the left of the path. If they dropped and the ball rolled enough distance within allowance, they might conceivably be then able to play left handed ....... ??

 

[D-S]

Too bad unfortunately, I think that was the point that was being clarified?

The player is wanting to take free relief from the path. So the nearest point of complete relief will be the closest point they can drop the ball where the path does not interfere with their swing (including stance).

For the left hander, that nearest point could be the 18 inch thick line of the course next to the OB. If the boundary hinders their stance, that is too bad. They may need to take unplayable or play off the path.

So basically it could be a 3” strip of turf between the path and a high wall (that was the boundary) and the LH would have to drop there?

 

[Swango1980]

So basically it could be a 3” strip of turf between the path and a high wall (that was the boundary) and the LH would have to drop there?

Yeah, that is what Post 18 seems to be saying. nearest Point of Relief rather than the Nicest Point of Relief.

But interested to see someone clarify the point Pants made. If a LH did drop on the 18 inches, and they physically had to stand right-handed to play ball (or do one of those back handed chips), they'd be standing on the path again.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Too bad unfortunately, I think that was the point that was being clarified?

The player is wanting to take free relief from the path. So the nearest point of complete relief will be the closest point they can drop the ball where the path does not interfere with their swing (including stance).

For the left hander, that nearest point could be the 18 inch thick line of the course next to the OB. If the boundary hinders their stance, that is too bad. They may need to take unplayable or play off the path.

Oh - I am sure my left-hander friends would love me for telling them they'd have to drop on the 18" strip of grass - and that even though they would not be able to take a stance - well that's tough - even though it might well be physically impossible for them to take a stance - never mind very difficult or impossible to take a stance OoB but within the limits of the course.

I am pretty sure that most, if not all, of the left-handers in my club do not know this. I will raise with our golf manager and also with our handicap convener (who is also a qualified ref).

 

[Swango1980]

OKaaay...yes the Left-Hander could drop in the 18" strip but he is not going to be able to take a stance 'in bounds' to determine his NPR. Of course common sense is going to make what might well be the NPR pretty obvious - but do you not have to formally take a stance to actually properly determine it - we don't just guess our NPR as that implies there could be many - and there can only be one.

Nope. The definition states:

"The player does not need to simulate that stroke by taking an actual stance and swinging with the chosen club (but it is recommended that the player normally do this to help in making an accurate estimate)."

 

[Swango1980]

Oh - I am sure my left-hander friends would love me for telling them they'd have to drop on the 18" strip of grass - and that even though they would not be able to take a stance - well that's tough - even though it might well be physically impossible for them to take a stance - never mind very difficult or impossible to take a stance OoB but within the limits of the course.

I am pretty sure that most, if not all, of the left-handers in my club do not know this. I will raise with our golf manager and also with our handicap convener (who is also a qualified ref).

Don't shoot the messenger

We had a similar situation at my last club. Gravel path running in front of white 1st tee box, meandering up fairway. For first 50 yards of path, it ran up left hand side of fairway up to the yellow tee box. If you ended up on the path, the likelihood would be that your nearest point was on left hand side, especially if you were right-handed. Left hand side of path was a narrow steepish bank of quite high rough, and just dense bushes. You basically had no shot if you wanted relief. Obviously most people felt they could drop it at the nearest point where they had a full swing and a decent lie. So, they didn't like to be told that the nearest point was under a bush

 

[rulie]

Nope. The definition states:

"The player does not need to simulate that stroke by taking an actual stance and swinging with the chosen club (but it is recommended that the player normally do this to help in making an accurate estimate)."

The NPCR is where the ball lies to avoid interference by the cart path - it does not include anything about a stance, other than the stance can't be on the interfering object.

 

[Swango1980]

The NPCR is where the ball lies to avoid interference by the cart path - it does not include anything about a stance, other than the stance can't be on the interfering object.

Hence my Post #27

I was simply pointing to the section in the rules that responded directly to the question SILH asked

 

[rulie]

Hence my Post #27

I was simply pointing to the section in the rules that responded directly to the question SILH asked

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I am thinking that im my scenario a leftie finding himself on the track side nearer the OoB could drop his ball at the NPR in the 18” then claim that his only reasonable shot option is to play it right handed. But as that would see him standing on the track - and as that would be a totally separate rules situation from taking his drop from the track - he could now claim relief from the track…and take relief fairway side of track. But would he then have to play his next shot right-handed?

 

[Pants]

I am thinking that im my scenario a leftie finding himself on the track side nearer the OoB could drop his ball at the NPR in the 18” then claim that his only reasonable shot option is to play it right handed. But as that would see him standing on the track - and as that would be a totally separate rules situation from taking his drop from the track - he could now claim relief from the track…and take relief fairway side of track. But would he then have to play his next shot right-handed?

Ermm Post #28 ?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Ermm Post #28 ?

We are waiting some expert rule guidance on the matter...

You suggested our leftie might be able to play normally if the ball finished in a position that enabled him to take a normal stance clear of the track - I'm asking would he be required to play right-handed as he took right-handed relief (though that would seem a bizarre requirement)

 

[rulie]

Am I right in thinking that in this scenario the leftie could rightly claim that the only way they could play the shot would be right handed. They would then be standing on the path and could get relief and drop on the left of the path. If they dropped and the ball rolled enough distance within allowance, they might conceivably be then able to play left handed ....... ??

In that situation, the player would find the NPCR for his planned right-handed stroke. After dropping, he can play the next stroke in any manner he likes provided that he doesn't have interference by the cart path. Of course, the planned right-handed stroke would need to be reasonable - see Rule 16.1a(3).