Tee markers.

[jim8flog]

I realize that, but don't understand the benefit of having the permanent markers at the back of the tee box (other than a number on a card), meaning that you will nearly always be playing a course that is shorter than the rated yardage.

Permanent markers were put at the back of the tee to maximise length on the card and in the old days when it was solely based upon yardage it might gain a shot on the par (we have one such hole).

My presumption is that it was done so the potential visitors thought that they would booking into course much longer than it actually played when comparing the course with other courses.

It is a bit like courses advertising the white distances and then saying you must play off the yellows tees.

 

[rulie]

Permanent markers were put at the back of the tee to maximise length on the card and in the old days when it was solely based upon yardage it might gain a shot on the par (we have one such hole).

My presumption is that it was done so the potential visitors thought that they would booking into course much longer than it actually played when comparing the course with other courses.

It is a bit like courses advertising the white distances and then saying you must play off the yellows tees.

I wonder how much business these dubious practices actually generated?

 

[rulefan]

The USGA Rating requires that there must be a minimum of 4 yards behind the permanent markers. If there isn't, the rated length is taken to be from where they are supposed to be.

 

[NearHull]

The USGA Rating requires that there must be a minimum of 4 yards behind the permanent markers. If there isn't, the rated length is taken to be from where they are supposed to be.

I helped to rate a handful of courses in 2019. Surprising numbers of tee stones within 4 yards of the rear of the prepaid area.

 

[rulefan]

I helped to rate a handful of courses in 2019. Surprising numbers of tee stones within 4 yards of the rear of the prepaid area.

Yes, it means that the course played is rated shorter than the players think it is. For every hole where the tee markers are forward of the permanent markers (by 10 yards say) there can't be a compensating movement back on another hole.
I hope your team made the appropriate adjustments and informed the club.

Just curious, who was your team leader (Mike R?).

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Off our whites we are CR 72; off our yellows we are CR 70. SR for both is 125. In general (hopefully just at the moment) I don’t score better off yellows than off whites, so when I play a WHS qualifier off yellows my differential is usually higher.

If, like many seniors, I only played my qualifiers off the yellows I reckon my H/I would be a good bit higher than it is with CH maybe a couple more. Play a comp off whites I reckon that with a yellow-based H/I I‘d be quite competitive.

 

[rulefan]

Off our whites we are CR 72; off our yellows we are CR 70. SR for both is 125. In general (hopefully just at the moment) I don’t score better off yellows than off whites, so when I play a WHS qualifier off yellows my differential is usually higher.

If, like many seniors, I only played my qualifiers off the yellows I reckon my H/I would be a good bit higher than it is with CH maybe a couple more. Play a comp off whites I reckon that with a yellow-based H/I I‘d be quite competitive.

It's all about 'horses for courses'. Depends where you strengths and weaknesses are

 

[D-S]

Our course has 3 sets of rated tees for men, all par 70 - Blue 67.8, Yellow 69.6 and White 71.6. There is absolutely no consensus between which is the easiest to play to handicap, with most undecided between yellows and whites.
I would like to have the CR-Par calculation in ones Course Handicap (like the rest of the world) as this would better inform people’s choice in mixed tee competitions, I know you can do the calculations yourself and PCC isn’t included, par isn’t important etc. etc. but it would make the degree of difficulty a lot clearer to most golfers.

 

[rulefan]

Our course has 3 sets of rated tees for men, all par 70 - Blue 67.8, Yellow 69.6 and White 71.6. There is absolutely no consensus between which is the easiest to play to handicap, with most undecided between yellows and whites.
I would like to have the CR-Par calculation in ones Course Handicap (like the rest of the world) as this would better inform people’s choice in mixed tee competitions, I know you can do the calculations yourself and PCC isn’t included, par isn’t important etc. etc. but it would make the degree of difficulty a lot clearer to most golfers.

But par tells you nothing about difficulty. It is a very crude measure of the length of the holes. A hole of 250 yards can either be a par 3 or a par 4. A hole of 460 yards can be a par 4 or par 5.
A course of 18 x 300 yard holes would be par 72 as would be a course of 18 x 450 yard holes.
What does a long hitting 20 capper choose as opposed to a straight hitting 20 capper?

 

[rulie]

I think D-S was suggesting that both Course rating and Par be used in determining the course handicap. The two courses that you've described might have the same par but they would definitely not have the same course rating, nor slope rating.

 

[D-S]

But par tells you nothing about difficulty. It is a very crude measure of the length of the holes. A hole of 250 yards can either be a par 3 or a par 4. A hole of 460 yards can be a par 4 or par 5.
A course of 18 x 300 yard holes would be par 72 as would be a course of 18 x 450 yard holes.
What does a long hitting 20 capper choose as opposed to a straight hitting 20 capper?

I fully realise that par doesn’t represent difficulty but my course handicap according to CONGU only represents one element, the slope i.e. a relative difficulty between a scratch and a bogey golfer not the demands of the course itself.
As such my course handicap under CONGU is 5 off the Blues, 5 off the Yellows and also 5 off the Whites so it plainly does not represent the course difficulty at all.
However, if we do what the rest of the world does, my CH off the Blues would be 3, off the yellows would be 5 and off the whites would be 7.
Surely a far better system?

 

[wjemather]

I fully realise that par doesn’t represent difficulty but my course handicap according to CONGU only represents one element, the slope i.e. a relative difficulty between a scratch and a bogey golfer not the demands of the course itself.
As such my course handicap under CONGU is 5 off the Blues, 5 off the Yellows and also 5 off the Whites so it plainly does not represent the course difficulty at all.
However, if we do what the rest of the world does, my CH off the Blues would be 3, off the yellows would be 5 and off the whites would be 7.
Surely a far better system?

Of course the 9-hole Course Handicap calculation does account for the Course Rating. Thanks to CONGU's misguided priorities (i.e. continuity with how UHS worked, regardless of the fact that most golfers, however incorrectly, assess themselves against par rather than SSS/CR) an opportunity was missed and we still don't have a consistent system.

 

[D-S]

Of course the 9-hole Course Handicap calculation does account for the Course Rating. Thanks to CONGU's misguided priorities (i.e. continuity with how UHS worked, regardless of the fact that most golfers, however incorrectly, assess themselves against par rather than SSS/CR) an opportunity was missed and we still don't have a consistent system.

And the fact that the 9 hole Course Handicap does account for Course Rating under CONGU only further muddies the water. I still haven’t heard a good reasoning for why CONGU decided to deliberately remain out of step in this. I honestly think the ‘too big a step’ explanation is nonsense as this would have been the perfect chance to introduce a change in amongst the plethora of changes made. When/if they do it later will only serve to create more confusion.

 

[NearHull]

Yes, it means that the course played is rated shorter than the players think it is. For every hole where the tee markers are forward of the permanent markers (by 10 yards say) there can't be a compensating movement back on another hole.
I hope your team made the appropriate adjustments and informed the club.

Just curious, who was your team leader (Mike R?).

Not Mike, though I’ve done one with him, It was Franco.

 

[Swango1980]

But par tells you nothing about difficulty. It is a very crude measure of the length of the holes. A hole of 250 yards can either be a par 3 or a par 4. A hole of 460 yards can be a par 4 or par 5.
A course of 18 x 300 yard holes would be par 72 as would be a course of 18 x 450 yard holes.
What does a long hitting 20 capper choose as opposed to a straight hitting 20 capper?

Haha, I think you made the mistake of falling into your standard "But par tells you nothing about difficulty" without reading D-S's post properly.

I, for one, agree with D-S. I wish CR-Par was included within the Course Handicap Calculation. It would clear up much confusion in an instant, from regular golfers who simply cannot grasp the concept of Slope, think it is related to absolute difficulty of the course, and are unlikely to ever visit this forum to finally understand the concept.

Besides, the way the UK decided to adopt the system, at odds with the rest of the world, just feels absurd. My course handicap at my home course off yellows is 8. If I went off to play Carnoustie off the Championship tees my course handicap would be...........8. Absurd. If we adopted CR-Par, my course handicap at my club would be 8, and Carnoustie it would be 14. Yes, you could say relative to other golfers it does not really matter so much about CR-Par. But, I'd feel demoralised playing off 8 at Carnoustie, and no amount of "don't worry, just compare your nett score to CR" is going to improve my mood. And, at least I understand the concept of CR. I hazard a guess most do not, so when they struggle to score 30 points at Carnoustie, it brings no pleasure to them knowing they only need just over 30 to play to handicap.

 

[DickInShorts]

I agree - people had the same issue with SSS and par under old system - my previous course par was 72 SSS 74 and CSS often 76 so with my then buffer of 3 I could score 30 points and be in buffer - I often thought I was having a bad round only to check my Stableford points after 16 holes - 26 - and realise I could make buffer with 2 nett pars !.
Others could easily give up trying as they would have thought they were having a rubbish round!