Tee markers.

[clubchamp98]

Hi we have one hole where the green keepers always use the green tee in the comps.
All the others are off the whites.
This green tee ( winter course) is 20 yds back and 20yds wide of where the marker for the white tee is.
Is this allowed .?
I thought when course is measured it must be from the rated tees !
Would this affect the WHS scoring?
Thanks.

 

[doublebogey7]

AS long as the overall length of the course on the day differs by no more than 100yds from the rated course length, then all is good. See appendix G in the Rules of Handicapping.

 

[clubchamp98]

AS long as the overall length of the course on the day differs by no more than 100yds from the rated course length, then all is good. See appendix G in the Rules of Handicapping.

Ok thanks .
Had a few people query it as it is on a completely different tee.

 

[wjemather]

Hi we have one hole where the green keepers always use the green tee in the comps.
All the others are off the whites.
This green tee ( winter course) is 20 yds back and 20yds wide of where the marker for the white tee is.
Is this allowed .?
I thought when course is measured it must be from the rated tees !
Would this affect the WHS scoring?
Thanks.

"The front of a teeing area, as defined in the Rules of Golf, should not be placed more than 10 yards (10 metres) in front of, or behind, the relevant permanent distance marker on each hole. Overall, the golf course should not be shortened (or lengthened) by more than 100 yards (100 metres) from its measured length, to ensure accurate application of the Course Rating and Slope Rating in the calculation of players’ Score Differentials."

Note that the word used in the rules is "should" rather than "must".

 

[clubchamp98]

"The front of a teeing area, as defined in the Rules of Golf, should not be placed more than 10 yards (10 metres) in front of, or behind, the relevant permanent distance marker on each hole. Overall, the golf course should not be shortened (or lengthened) by more than 100 yards (100 metres) from its measured length, to ensure accurate application of the Course Rating and Slope Rating in the calculation of players’ Score Differentials."

Note that the word used in the rules is "should" rather than "must".

So in theory if all the markers were bang on the measured tee markers one could be significantly longer.?
Is that to take in damage wear and tear of the tees etc ?
But the white tee is in perfect condition, strange but does make the hole very much harder.
It was just mentioned at the club because the tee markers were not even on the normal tee .
We have a measured green course for winter , some shorter but this particular one is longer.
Thanks

 

[wjemather]

If the front of all the teeing areas was exactly on the permanent distance marker the the overall yardage would be exactly as the course was measured and rated.
Yes, the ten yards either way is to facilitate teeing areas being moved around the physical teeing ground to distribute wear and allow recovery. The 100 yards overall is so that the ratings remain accurate.

Many clubs do not have the ability to go 10 yards back due to their permanent distance markers being only 4 yards (sometimes less) from the back of the available teeing ground (in accordance with CONGU's UHS specifications). As a result, teeing areas are routinely sited well over 10 yards in front of the markers at some clubs.

 

[D-S]

"The front of a teeing area, as defined in the Rules of Golf, should not be placed more than 10 yards (10 metres) in front of, or behind, the relevant permanent distance marker on each hole. Overall, the golf course should not be shortened (or lengthened) by more than 100 yards (100 metres) from its measured length, to ensure accurate application of the Course Rating and Slope Rating in the calculation of players’ Score Differentials."

Note that the word used in the rules is "should" rather than "must".

I seem to recall in the last EG handicap advisor seminar that EG said that the ‘should’ is actually a ‘must’ - they were told that if that is actually the case the wording should be changed accordingly.
I am sure there were others on here who might have attended it too and maybe can corroborate this.

 

[wjemather]

I seem to recall in the last EG handicap advisor seminar that EG said that the ‘should’ is actually a ‘must’ - they were told that if that is actually the case the wording should be changed accordingly.
I am sure there were others on here who might have attended it too and maybe can corroborate this.

If they did that, per my later comment (#6), there would be huge numbers of courses on which scores would immediately become unacceptable for WHS without the permanent distance markers being moved and getting re-rated. In addition, courses would likely need to add several tee variants (or sets of tees) - more ratings needed - in order to facilitate full use of their teeing grounds which can easily span 40+ yards from front to back. Perhaps that is why it is a "should" and not a "must", and should probably stay that way.

 

[D-S]

Agreed, it seemed unworkab when I heard it. EG were pushing for temporary rating changes but as you say even this would be a large workload. Many courses wouldn’t even die in the +/- 100 yards throughout the winter when social scores may often be posted, not sure if clubs will remember to ‘turn off’ sets of tees regularly for acceptable scores.

 

[jim8flog]

Many clubs do not have the ability to go 10 yards back due to their permanent distance markers being only 4 yards (sometimes less) from the back of the available teeing ground (in accordance with CONGU's UHS specifications). As a result, teeing areas are routinely sited well over 10 yards in front of the markers at some clubs.

I remember back before the WHS started. When courses were going to re rated all clubs with such fixed markers were going to be advised to move them and the course rated according to where the fixed marker should be sited. No idea if this happened because our club would certainly have needed to do it.

 

[rulie]

A handicapping authority telling clubs where to put the permanent markers seems a bit "over the top". Imo, the clubs can put them where they want before the rating. It would seem more appropriate to have the permanent markers centred on the tee box rather than at the back or front.

 

[wjemather]

A handicapping authority telling clubs where to put the permanent markers seems a bit "over the top". Imo, the clubs can put them where they want before the rating. It would seem more appropriate to have the permanent markers centred on the tee box rather than at the back or front.

Indeed it would, but unfortunately many club owners/members/committees have vanity issues about their course's total yardage from each set of tees and as a result have pushed the markers as far back as possible. In addition, the previous CONGU system almost encouraged placement towards the back of the box.

 

[clubchamp98]

My concern regarding this was mainly that the tee of the day wasn’t even on the main tee complex where the white tee is.
It was a long way back 20yds and sideways 20yds and situated on a tee specifically built for the green winter course.
Is this still within WHS requirements?

 

[rulie]

My concern regarding this was mainly that the tee of the day wasn’t even on the main tee complex where the white tee is.
It was a long way back 20yds and sideways 20yds and situated on a tee specifically built for the green winter course.
Is this still within WHS requirements?

Which WHS requirement do you think it does not meet?
Competitors need to play the course as laid out by the Committee, and this may have differences from the course that is set up for casual play. If the tee is "always" on that tee box for competitions, wouldn't that considered normal?

 

[clubchamp98]

Which WHS requirement do you think it does not meet?
Competitors need to play the course as laid out by the Committee, and this may have differences from the course that is set up for casual play. If the tee is "always" on that tee box for competitions, wouldn't that considered normal?

I thought courses were rated from the tee stones .
So if you put it on a completely different tee it changes that measured course.
But as long as we all play the same tee I suppose it’s ok.

 

[wjemather]

I thought courses were rated from the tee stones .
So if you put it on a completely different tee it changes that measured course.
But as long as we all play the same tee I suppose it’s ok.

If the course were to have two ratings, accounting for the change to a single tee that you describe, it is unlikely you would see a significant difference in them.

That being said, if it is a distinct standard course setup that is used regularly, it should have its own ratings.

 

[Colin L]

I thought courses were rated from the tee stones .
So if you put it on a completely different tee it changes that measured course.
But as long as we all play the same tee I suppose it’s ok.

Provided changes from the measured course are not such that the altered course should have a different slope rating, then I reckon it's ok.

 

[Colin L]

I thought courses were rated from the tee stones .
So if you put it on a completely different tee it changes that measured course.
But as long as we all play the same tee I suppose it’s ok.

Provided changes from the measured course are not such that the altered course should have a different slope rating, then I reckon it's ok.

If the changes are substantial enough, there is a mechanism for adjusting the course and slope ratings.

 

[jim8flog]

A handicapping authority telling clubs where to put the permanent markers seems a bit "over the top". Imo, the clubs can put them where they want before the rating. It would seem more appropriate to have the permanent markers centred on the tee box rather than at the back or front.

This was reference to having the fixed distance markers so far back (to make the course seem longer on the card) so that there is no space behind them to actually tee off.

 

[rulie]

This was reference to having the fixed distance markers so far back (to make the course seem longer on the card) so that there is no space behind them to actually tee off.

I realize that, but don't understand the benefit of having the permanent markers at the back of the tee box (other than a number on a card), meaning that you will nearly always be playing a course that is shorter than the rated yardage.