Ball played by someone from another group

[cookelad]

But not allowed for an acceptable score for handicapping purposes under England Golf Rules of Handicapping.

then check the OP's location

 

[cookelad]

Thanks all for the replies I thought that was the case that once he's put another in play it was done but wanted to confirm as I would be trying my best to go back to where I'd hit my drive to play my second!! obviously it's too late to change anything now anyway!

 

[Orikoru]

Rules can be unfair sometimes. I was in a betterball match a couple of years ago, my ball went in the right rough, and a child playing up the other way picked it up. We ran back to them and confirmed this and got my ball back - but as none of us had seen it happen we couldn't agree where to replace it so I was out of the hole.

(Actually I think last time I told this story someone pointed that our opponents could have just agreed to a rough location to let me drop it, but maybe they didn't know or were pulling a fast one to try and keep me out of that hole. We won the match anyway so didn't matter.)

 

[Swango1980]

Rules can be unfair sometimes. I was in a betterball match a couple of years ago, my ball went in the right rough, and a child playing up the other way picked it up. We ran back to them and confirmed this and got my ball back - but as none of us had seen it happen we couldn't agree where to replace it so I was out of the hole.

(Actually I think last time I told this story someone pointed that our opponents could have just agreed to a rough location to let me drop it, but maybe they didn't know or were pulling a fast one to try and keep me out of that hole. We won the match anyway so didn't matter.)

Would you say that in this case, it wasn't the rules that were unfair, it was just "unfair" that nobody in the group actually knew the rule?

 

[Orikoru]

Would you say that in this case, it wasn't the rules that were unfair, it was just "unfair" that nobody in the group actually knew the rule?

Yeah, I changed direction somewhat half-way through that post didn't I?

The rules still are unfair sometimes. I personally don't think you should get a penalty for someone else hitting your ball and you subsequently not finding it within 3 minutes. But then I don't know how else you proceed with the hole either, since you would have taken another course of action, such as taking stroke and distance upon not finding it - and only discover what happened later. If it is discovered before the hole is finished, then you should be able to go back and take a free drop where your ball was hit from! But that would hold up speed of play considerably.

 

[Swango1980]

Yeah, I changed direction somewhat half-way through that post didn't I?

The rules still are unfair sometimes. I personally don't think you should get a penalty for someone else hitting your ball and you subsequently not finding it within 3 minutes. But then I don't know how else you proceed with the hole either, since you would have taken another course of action, such as taking stroke and distance upon not finding it - and only discover what happened later. If it is discovered before the hole is finished, then you should be able to go back and take a free drop where your ball was hit from! But that would hold up speed of play considerably.

I'd agree. If you lose your ball on a hole, and then later find out on the green someone else played your ball (thus removing your ability to identify it at the time), then I believe the rules should allow you to go back and play from where they played your ball, with no penalty.

Obviously, if you find out later in the round on another hole, it would be too late to go back then, so it is just too bad sadly. But, if you are still on the same hole, surely it can't be too late? After all, doesn't the chap who played your ball incorrectly have to go back and proceed correctly anyway?

 

[Colin L]

Rules can be unfair sometimes. I was in a betterball match a couple of years ago, my ball went in the right rough, and a child playing up the other way picked it up. We ran back to them and confirmed this and got my ball back - but as none of us had seen it happen we couldn't agree where to replace it so I was out of the hole.

(Actually I think last time I told this story someone pointed that our opponents could have just agreed to a rough location to let me drop it, but maybe they didn't know or were pulling a fast one to try and keep me out of that hole. We won the match anyway so didn't matter.)

You didn't need your opponents' agreement to anything. The player decides what he is going to do and if his opponents don't like it they have to seek a ruling.

 

[Steven Rules]

could have just agreed to a rough location to let me drop it

Just to be clear. When the player’s ball is moved (or removed altogether) by an outside influence - with known or virtual certainty within three minutes of commencing the search - the ball (or another ball) must be replaced on the original spot which if not known must be estimated. The ball is not dropped. Rule 9.6

If the ball is dropped, rather that replaced, the player would likely incur the general penalty for playing from a wrong place, although a remote possibility in unique circumstances that it might only be a one stroke penalty. See Clarification 14.2b(2)/1 for further explanation.

 

[Backache]

Yeah, I changed direction somewhat half-way through that post didn't I?

The rules still are unfair sometimes. I personally don't think you should get a penalty for someone else hitting your ball and you subsequently not finding it within 3 minutes. But then I don't know how else you proceed with the hole either, since you would have taken another course of action, such as taking stroke and distance upon not finding it - and only discover what happened later. If it is discovered before the hole is finished, then you should be able to go back and take a free drop where your ball was hit from! But that would hold up speed of play considerably.

It's certainly unlucky but is it really unfair? The same possibilities exist for both players at the outset, the rule favours neither, it is one of many random events that can affect the outcome. There is usually a degree of poor shot , hitting it into the rough or an adjoining fairway is not usually where you intend to hit it.

Last match I played which I lost one down on the 18th I had hit two of my best tee shots long and straight off the tee one was a blind tee shot and one was into the evening sun neither was seen again, they must have got wicked bounces, very unlucky , but not really unfair it could have happened to my opponent.

 

[Orikoru]

It's certainly unlucky but is it really unfair? The same possibilities exist for both players at the outset, the rule favours neither, it is one of many random events that can affect the outcome. There is usually a degree of poor shot , hitting it into the rough or an adjoining fairway is not usually where you intend to hit it.

Last match I played which I lost one down on the 18th I had hit two of my best tee shots long and straight off the tee one was a blind tee shot and one was into the evening sun neither was seen again, they must have got wicked bounces, very unlucky , but not really unfair it could have happened to my opponent.

Bad bounces and conditions are part of the game though - I wouldn't necessarily place idiots nicking my ball in the same category.

 

[Backache]

Bad bounces and conditions are part of the game though - I wouldn't necessarily place idiots nicking my ball in the same category.

But it happens from time to time particularly someone playing a wrong ball in error, a woman stoutly denied playing my ball when I had seen where it had landed , though this was not in competition. A friends course had a fox that knicked golf balls.

 

[Orikoru]

But it happens from time to time particularly someone playing a wrong ball in error, a woman stoutly denied playing my ball when I had seen where it had landed , though this was not in competition. A friends course had a fox that knicked golf balls.

I'm sure it has happened more than we realise too, as you may never know!

 

[Springveldt]

Unbelievably this actually happened to me today. I’m staying out this section in the future.

We have 3 fairways running parallel to each other, 5 is going east to west, 10 west to east then 11 east to west.

We were on 10 and I was aiming in the rough between 5 and 10 as the wind was off the left. I pull the tee shot onto the 5th fairway and as we are walking to it the guys coming down 5 hit their second shots, one of them right next to my ball. We can still see a ball on the fairway but when I get there, it isn’t mine. I look at the guys going down 5 who are now 170 yards away and I can see one of them standing over his ball but looking back at me.

My playing partners (first time playing with them, didn’t know them before the round) both say that guy definitely hit your ball so just play another from here but in my head I’m thinking of this thread and running through the scenarios.

As we are walking down 11 the guy who I was sure hit my ball is walking across the fairway on his way back to the clubhouse. He comes over and says “I’ve got an apology to make to one of you”, I say “me, you hit my ball didn’t you?” and he takes my ball out of his pocket and hands it to me. He then says “I’ve got a sore back, my trolley has just died and I’ve been DQ’ed for playing the wrong ball, today is not my day” and then sets off for the clubhouse.

So, should I still have penalised myself in this instance and been DQ’ed as well? We were all certain the guy had played my ball which it turned out he did but I didn’t find that out for definite until the next hole. Played crap anyway so it’s not like it’s a counting score but I’d like to be 100% sure if it ever happens again I’m doing the correct thing.

 

[doublebogey7]

Unbelievably this actually happened to me today. I’m staying out this section in the future.

We have 3 fairways running parallel to each other, 5 is going east to west, 10 west to east then 11 east to west.

We were on 10 and I was aiming in the rough between 5 and 10 as the wind was off the left. I pull the tee shot onto the 5th fairway and as we are walking to it the guys coming down 5 hit their second shots, one of them right next to my ball. We can still see a ball on the fairway but when I get there, it isn’t mine. I look at the guys going down 5 who are now 170 yards away and I can see one of them standing over his ball but looking back at me.

My playing partners (first time playing with them, didn’t know them before the round) both say that guy definitely hit your ball so just play another from here but in my head I’m thinking of this thread and running through the scenarios.

As we are walking down 11 the guy who I was sure hit my ball is walking across the fairway on his way back to the clubhouse. He comes over and says “I’ve got an apology to make to one of you”, I say “me, you hit my ball didn’t you?” and he takes my ball out of his pocket and hands it to me. He then says “I’ve got a sore back, my trolley has just died and I’ve been DQ’ed for playing the wrong ball, today is not my day” and then sets off for the clubhouse.

So, should I still have penalised myself in this instance and been DQ’ed as well? We were all certain the guy had played my ball which it turned out he did but I didn’t find that out for definite until the next hole. Played crap anyway so it’s not like it’s a counting score but I’d like to be 100% sure if it ever happens again I’m doing the correct thing.

If you did not have KVC at the time you dropped another ball, then yes you should DQ'd yourself. You could have avoided that by walking the 170yds to ask the guy if he had played your ball before putting another ball in play which you knew was not right.

 

[rulie]

If you did not have KVC at the time you dropped another ball, then yes you should DQ'd yourself. You could have avoided that by walking the 170yds to ask the guy if he had played your ball before putting another ball in play which you knew was not right.

Correct. And KVC means that the decision you are making will be right 19 times out of 20. KVC is a very high bar.

 

[Slab]

And just for giggles… is it still the case that, just like ‘declaring a ball lost’, you can’t ‘DQ yourself’. A DQ is a result of the actions taken & not a declaration or statement etc ?

 

[rulie]

And just for giggles… is it still the case that, just like ‘declaring a ball lost’, you can’t ‘DQ yourself’. A DQ is a result of the actions taken & not a declaration or statement etc ?

Probably correct. You can withdraw, NR, but a dq is the result of a breach of the Rules.

 

[Springveldt]

If you did not have KVC at the time you dropped another ball, then yes you should DQ'd yourself. You could have avoided that by walking the 170yds to ask the guy if he had played your ball before putting another ball in play which you knew was not right.

Well we did have KVC since all 3 of us were 100% sure one of them had hit my ball and we were correct when the guy gave me my ball back. What you are asking me to do it isn’t KVC it’s actually verify it.

If all 3 players agree a ball has went in a pond instead of being lost in the grass next to a pond do you need to get the scuba gear out, go into the pond and find your ball to have KVC?

Correct. And KVC means that the decision you are making will be right 19 times out of 20. KVC is a very high bar.

Again, we were right. The guy gave me my ball back.

 

[Springveldt]

And just for giggles… is it still the case that, just like ‘declaring a ball lost’, you can’t ‘DQ yourself’. A DQ is a result of the actions taken & not a declaration or statement etc ?

I think the guy might have played out the 5th hole, when I saw him looking back at me he didn’t just pick up his ball then and there. I also saw him walking over the hill to the green with the rest of his group.

Doesn’t that mean you are disqualified if you play out the hole with the wrong ball according to this rule?

Anyway, DQ, NR, whatever, the guy walked off.

 

[salfordlad]

Unbelievably this actually happened to me today. I’m staying out this section in the future.

We have 3 fairways running parallel to each other, 5 is going east to west, 10 west to east then 11 east to west.

We were on 10 and I was aiming in the rough between 5 and 10 as the wind was off the left. I pull the tee shot onto the 5th fairway and as we are walking to it the guys coming down 5 hit their second shots, one of them right next to my ball. We can still see a ball on the fairway but when I get there, it isn’t mine. I look at the guys going down 5 who are now 170 yards away and I can see one of them standing over his ball but looking back at me.

My playing partners (first time playing with them, didn’t know them before the round) both say that guy definitely hit your ball so just play another from here but in my head I’m thinking of this thread and running through the scenarios.

As we are walking down 11 the guy who I was sure hit my ball is walking across the fairway on his way back to the clubhouse. He comes over and says “I’ve got an apology to make to one of you”, I say “me, you hit my ball didn’t you?” and he takes my ball out of his pocket and hands it to me. He then says “I’ve got a sore back, my trolley has just died and I’ve been DQ’ed for playing the wrong ball, today is not my day” and then sets off for the clubhouse.

So, should I still have penalised myself in this instance and been DQ’ed as well? We were all certain the guy had played my ball which it turned out he did but I didn’t find that out for definite until the next hole. Played crap anyway so it’s not like it’s a counting score but I’d like to be 100% sure if it ever happens again I’m doing the correct thing.

I'll offer a template:
a) If you saw your ball come to rest on the 5th fairway but when you got there it was gone, there is absolutely no issue - your ball at rest has been moved by an outside influence and Rule 9.6 requires you to directly replace a ball where you estimate the original lay and play on. No penalty.
b) If you didn't see it come to rest but you have KVC your ball has been moved, again you replace on the estimated spot and play on. No penalty.
c) If there was a possibility of an outside influence moving your ball, but less than that KVC (95 per cent) level, you need to get to and identify your ball before the time clock runs out or take S&D.
If you substituted a ball in the estimated area without being in a) or b) worlds, you have subbed a ball without authority and played from a wrong place, likely to be a serious breach, which requires you to abandon the ball played from the wrong place and return to the tee and play under S&D, playing your 5th stroke. Hitting off the next tee without correction would trigger DQ.
The person that played your ball apparently misunderstood that playing a wrong ball is only a DQ if the player hits from the next tee without correcting the error. Correcting the error means returning to the correct spot and continuing with their original ball (adding a general penalty).