Ball played by someone from another group

[Springveldt]

I'll offer a template:
a) If you saw your ball come to rest on the 5th fairway but when you got there it was gone, there is absolutely no issue - your ball at rest has been moved by an outside influence and Rule 9.6 requires you to directly replace a ball where you estimate the original lay and play on. No penalty.
b) If you didn't see it come to rest but you have KVC your ball has been moved, again you replace on the estimated spot and play on. No penalty.
c) If there was a possibility of an outside influence moving your ball, but less than that KVC (95 per cent) level, you need to get to and identify your ball before the time clock runs out or take S&D.
If you substituted a ball in the estimated area without being in a) or b) worlds, you have subbed a ball without authority and played from a wrong place, likely to be a serious breach, which requires you to abandon the ball played from the wrong place and return to the tee and play under S&D, playing your 5th stroke. Hitting off the next tee without correction would trigger DQ.
The person that played your ball apparently misunderstood that playing a wrong ball is only a DQ if the player hits from the next tee without correcting the error. Correcting the error means returning to the correct spot and continuing with their original ball (adding a general penalty).

Thanks, so a) actually covers it as we all saw the ball come to rest on the other fairway, we all saw someone hit from that area and when I get up there it's a Taylormade ball in the area, not my Titleist ball.

Just some of the posts in this thread have confused me, especially with KVC and having to check with the guy who you think hit your ball to be sure. That doesn't make sense to me as it's then not KVC it's 100% factual at that point. I'd have thought the whole point of KVC is so you don't have to go chasing people around the course asking if they hit/picked up your ball. If all 3 players are in agreement something has happened surely that is enough for KVC? Maybe for another topic.

 

[doublebogey7]

Well we did have KVC since all 3 of us were 100% sure one of them had hit my ball and we were correct when the guy gave me my ball back. What you are asking me to do it isn’t KVC it’s actually verify it.

If all 3 players agree a ball has went in a pond instead of being lost in the grass next to a pond do you need to get the scuba gear out, go into the pond and find your ball to have KVC?


Again, we were right. The guy gave me my ball back.

What was it that made you sure? Remember you need 95% certainty and from the information you have given I don't see how you can say you passed that mark.

It is not a case of other players agreeing or disagreeing, if the grass is long and you have looked for the full three minutes then I would take the view that there is more than a 5% chance that the ball is lost (in the long grass) and that PA relief is not available. If on the other hand the only place could be was on the fairway, then go ahead and take relief.

 

[Orikoru]

Thanks, so a) actually covers it as we all saw the ball come to rest on the other fairway, we all saw someone hit from that area and when I get up there it's a Taylormade ball in the area, not my Titleist ball.

Just some of the posts in this thread have confused me, especially with KVC and having to check with the guy who you think hit your ball to be sure. That doesn't make sense to me as it's then not KVC it's 100% factual at that point. I'd have thought the whole point of KVC is so you don't have to go chasing people around the course asking if they hit/picked up your ball. If all 3 players are in agreement something has happened surely that is enough for KVC? Maybe for another topic.

Completely agree with you. I've seen it before when discussing hazards - people would have you believe that KVC means someone saw it go in. But that's certain isn't it, not virtually certain?

 

[salfordlad]

Thanks, so a) actually covers it as we all saw the ball come to rest on the other fairway, we all saw someone hit from that area and when I get up there it's a Taylormade ball in the area, not my Titleist ball.

Just some of the posts in this thread have confused me, especially with KVC and having to check with the guy who you think hit your ball to be sure. That doesn't make sense to me as it's then not KVC it's 100% factual at that point. I'd have thought the whole point of KVC is so you don't have to go chasing people around the course asking if they hit/picked up your ball. If all 3 players are in agreement something has happened surely that is enough for KVC? Maybe for another topic.

Known or Virtually Certain is a challenging issue. It is an objective assessment of the facts of the case ("all available information"), not simply the subjective opinion of a few folk that it is very likely that the ball was moved. If the players didn't see the ball come to rest in another fairway, I really want to know more about the lay of the land - how much rough/how much trees/how clear is it that the flight of the ball met no obstacles and so on. 95 per cent is a high hurdle and it takes little uncertainty to torpedo it being achieved. And commonly players let their sense of "unfair" distort an arms-length assessment of the respective risks that may result in a ball not being found.

 

[Neilds]

What was it that made you sure? Remember you need 95% certainty and from the information you have given I don't see how you can say you passed that mark.

It is not a case of other players agreeing or disagreeing, if the grass is long and you have looked for the full three minutes then I would take the view that there is more than a 5% chance that the ball is lost (in the long grass) and that PA relief is not available. If on the other hand the only place could be was on the fairway, then go ahead and take relief.

The ball was on the fairway - as stated so not sure where you are getting the idea it was in the rough. KVC counts for me.

 

[doublebogey7]

The ball was on the fairway - as stated so not sure where you are getting the idea it was in the rough. KVC counts for me.

I was answering the second paragraph of the previous post which referred to ball lost or otherwise in a PA

 

[Springveldt]

What was it that made you sure? Remember you need 95% certainty and from the information you have given I don't see how you can say you passed that mark.

It is not a case of other players agreeing or disagreeing, if the grass is long and you have looked for the full three minutes then I would take the view that there is more than a 5% chance that the ball is lost (in the long grass) and that PA relief is not available. If on the other hand the only place could be was on the fairway, then go ahead and take relief.

In my case? The ball was on the other fairway, I saw a guy hitting in the area of my ball, there was still a ball in the area when I got there but it was a different make from mine. I was 100% sure he had hit mine.

For the fictional case of the ball in the hazard, I don't know about you but we've always done it. We know were the pond is, we know the line the ball was on and it's heading for the pond but no one sees it actually go in since the pond is over a little hump. You give a quick look around the pond "just in case" to clear that last bit of doubt but if you don't find it then you are pretty sure it's in the hazard. Maybe that's not good enough for you but everyone I've ever played with on that hole will usually say "that's heading for the pond" from the tee shot so you know if you don't find it that's were it has went. The pond has fairway before it and first cut to the right of it, it's not like you are looking in 2 foot tall grass.

I guess from your interpretation you will never have KVC unless you actually see it happen but that isn't really KVC in my opinion that's just 100% certain.

 

[Springveldt]

Known or Virtually Certain is a challenging issue. It is an objective assessment of the facts of the case ("all available information"), not simply the subjective opinion of a few folk that it is very likely that the ball was moved. If the players didn't see the ball come to rest in another fairway, I really want to know more about the lay of the land - how much rough/how much trees/how clear is it that the flight of the ball met no obstacles and so on. 95 per cent is a high hurdle and it takes little uncertainty to torpedo it being achieved. And commonly players let their sense of "unfair" distort an arms-length assessment of the respective risks that may result in a ball not being found.

Links course, not a lot of growth because of the weather, clear view of all 3 fairways from the 10th tee box. Watch the shot stop on the other fairway, nothing impeding the view. Get there and it's a different make of ball.

From the interpretations of KVC given in this thread I'd say most want it to be 100% rather than 95% or maybe the guys I've played with have been a little more laxed with it than they should have been.

 

[Springveldt]

Completely agree with you. I've seen it before when discussing hazards - people would have you believe that KVC means someone saw it go in. But that's certain isn't it, not virtually certain?

Exactly. It's not KVC if someone sees the ball go in, it's 100% certain and in the hazard but from this thread it would seem that you can't claim KVC if 3 people didn't see it go in but all agree that is where the ball must be. You need to get the scuba gear out and fetch the ball to prove it.

 

[Swango1980]

Exactly. It's not KVC if someone sees the ball go in, it's 100% certain and in the hazard but from this thread it would seem that you can't claim KVC if 3 people didn't see it go in but all agree that is where the ball must be. You need to get the scuba gear out and fetch the ball to prove it.

I suspect people are only highlighting the difference between KVC and what everyone suspects may have happened.

There have been plenty of times in my life that I've been "certain" enough that I'll definitely find my ball, and not hit a provisional. Not even considered it. Then I get to the open area where I feel my ball is, which could be a fairway, and there has been no sign of it. If there have been other players in the vicinity, perhaps they played the ball, perhaps they pocketed it. But, I cannot be KVC that this happened. Maybe it got stuck in one of the few trees on the journey to where I thought it was, deflected of something, fallen down a rabbit hole or just hidden under a leaf. So, unless I can find out from those other players if they did move the ball, I'd have to go back and take stroke and distance.

However, if I saw where my ball finished up, and was therefore certain that is where it would be, then it must be KVC that an outside influence moved it if it wasn't there when I got there. I wouldn't necessarily need to see the outside influence physically move it.

Every specific situation will be different. If everyone in a group where 60-90% sure that an outside influence moved the ball, that can feel like a definitive KVC, simply by the fact you feel that scenario is the most likely event. Of course, it isn't KVC, given the much higher threshold.

 

[rulie]

KVC means "known or virtually certain".

 

[Orikoru]

KVC means "known or virtually certain".

Alternatively, "known or virtually certain".

 

[rulie]

Alternatively, "known or virtually certain".

and "virtually certain" is defined as 95% certain. Plus, you only have three minutes to determine virtually certain.

 

[Orikoru]

and "virtually certain" is defined as 95% certain. Plus, you only have three minutes to determine virtually certain.

Had this discussion before but I'm not sure how somebody gauges their level of certainty on a scale of one to hundred.

"Damnit, I'm only 93% certain that went in so I'd better go back to the tee."
"Don't worry pal, I was 97% certain so if we take an average, you're fine."

 

[rulie]

Had this discussion before but I'm not sure how somebody gauges their level of certainty on a scale of one to hundred.

"Damnit, I'm only 93% certain that went in so I'd better go back to the tee."
"Don't worry pal, I was 97% certain so if we take an average, you're fine."

Instead of trying to guess percentages, it might be easier to just ask yourself (and others) if the decision being made, using all available information, would be correct 19 times out of 20 times. Can you be correct 19 times out of 20 on a coin toss?

 

[Swango1980]

Instead of trying to guess percentages, it might be easier to just ask yourself (and others) if the decision being made, using all available information, would be correct 19 times out of 20 times. Can you be correct 19 times out of 20 on a coin toss?

That isn't any extra help, all you are doing is expressing the % as a fraction.

It isn't like it now solves the problem, as the player is fully confident they'd be right 19 times out of 20, rather than 18, 17, 16, 15, etc.

 

[Orikoru]

That isn't any extra help, all you are doing is expressing the % as a fraction.

It isn't like it now solves the problem, as the player is fully confident they'd be right 19 times out of 20, rather than 18, 17, 16, 15, etc.

Exactly. It's one of the worst rules in golf, wishy-washy wording creates a grey area, with people interpreting it differently. Plenty of golfers all over the country are often saying things like "It must be in the hazard, because I would have found it outside if it wasn't. I'll take a drop." Ask them if they are virtually certain, and they'll say yes. So to their mind they've not broken a rule.

 

[Backache]

You could always try Bayesian analysis and hope your boat doesn't turn turtle.

 

[Colin L]

Exactly. It's one of the worst rules in golf, wishy-washy wording creates a grey area, with people interpreting it differently. Plenty of golfers all over the country are often saying things like "It must be in the hazard, because I would have found it outside if it wasn't. I'll take a drop." Ask them if they are virtually certain, and they'll say yes. So to their mind they've not broken a rule.

They maybe haven’t.

It’s a problematic rule right enough but would you rather not have it and have to take S&D when you do have that degree of certainty?

 

[Springveldt]

Instead of trying to guess percentages, it might be easier to just ask yourself (and others) if the decision being made, using all available information, would be correct 19 times out of 20 times. Can you be correct 19 times out of 20 on a coin toss?

Being correct 19 out of 20 times with a coin flip isn't being 95% correct, there is roughly a 0.002% chance of you calling it correct that many times for that many flips. Each coin flip is independent of the other and each flip is 50/50 so if you got it correct 19 times out of 20 you had better get the lottery numbers on as well.