Ball played by someone from another group

[cookelad]

This happened last weekend playing our monthly comp, playing the 8th which runs parallel to the 1st one of my group slices his tee shot (actually we all favoured the right side!!) on to the 1st fairway, when we get up there we find four balls but of course one isn't one of ours, and he suspects someone from the group (intentionally) playing the 1st has played his. He takes, under local rule, a drop in the fairway and 2-shot penalty. As we approach the green we catch up to the group playing the 1st so he challenges them and there is his ball being played by one of the group.

What is his next move? does he just accept that he's played his fourth onto the green or can he return to the spot where his drive finished and play his second?

 

[doublebogey7]

I am afraid they cannot as they already have put another ball in play.

 

[woofers]

Doesn’t rule 6.3c(2) cover this? KVC ball played by another player, replace on estimated spot under rule 14.2, no penalty.

 

[Steven Rules]

6.3c(2) - replacing another ball on the estimated original spot - would be an available course of action that becomes unavailable after the player either (a) doesn't establish KVC within three minutes (plus potentially a bit longer to identify any ball that is found within the three minutes) of the player commencing the search, or (b) playing another ball that the player has put into play.

 

[doublebogey7]

Doesn’t rule 6.3c(2) cover this? KVC ball played by another player, replace on estimated spot under rule 14.2, no penalty.

The player did not have KVC at the time he put another ball in olay.

 

[woofers]

I was basing my KVC on the OPs statement that the player had “intentionally”, not accidentally, played the wrong ball.
I assume the local rule he used to put another ball in play was E-5? If so, this local rule is not allowed in competitions for an acceptable handicap score.
Not relevant to this ruling but I wonder if the player who played the wrong ball was in the competition, and corrected his mistake.

 

[Neilds]

I was basing my KVC on the OPs statement that the player had “intentionally”, not accidentally, played the wrong ball.
I assume the local rule he used to put another ball in play was E-5? If so, this local rule is not allowed in competitions for an acceptable handicap score.
Not relevant to this ruling but I wonder if the player who played the wrong ball was in the competition, and corrected his mistake.

That part of the Ops statement is complete rubbish. Why do they think the player deliberately played someone else's ball?

 

[woofers]

That part of the Ops statement is complete rubbish. Why do they think the player deliberately played someone else's ball?

I don’t know, it’s just what they’ve stated.

 

[Neilds]

I don’t know, it’s just what they’ve stated.

Question was rhetorical and didn't expect you to answer

 

[Springveldt]

That part of the Ops statement is complete rubbish. Why do they think the player deliberately played someone else's ball?

I think OP is saying they are intentionally playing the first hole and not intentionally played his PP ball. Well, that's how I read it after reading it 3 times.

 

[Steven Rules]

I think OP is saying they are intentionally playing the first hole and not intentionally played his PP ball. Well, that's how I read it after reading it 3 times.

That's certainly how I read it, too.

 

[Swango1980]

I'm pretty sure in this situation, the player didn't find their ball, and thus would have to go back and play where they played their last shot, under stroke and distance penalty?

The fact that they expected to find their ball, and strongly suspected another player played it does not matter. It is why I often walk much quicker towards my ball if I see a player(s) on an adjacent hole walking to the same area I hit mine.

It once happened to me, where our 6th and 9th are adjacent, in opposite directions. I went down the right of the 9th, and I say guys on the 6th playing from that area before I could get there. When I did, I found a ball but it wasn't mine. I shouted up to the other group if the guy was playing a (insert make of ball), and he said yes. By this point, he had already hit 2 more shots with the ball I thought was mine, on a 560 yard par 5. So, I just remember running miles up that fairway to look at the ball. And, wouldn't you know it, it was my ball he was playing with.

As for your last question, definitely too bad that he found out it was his ball at that point. It is like me a few weeks ago, when I lost my ball on the 4th, and when we got to the green, we realised the only reason I lost it was because one of my playing partners had assumed it was his, played it (before we started looking for mine), and only realised when he marked it on the green

 

[Steven Rules]

I'm pretty sure in this situation, the player didn't find their ball, and thus would have to go back and play where they played their last shot, under stroke and distance penalty?

The OP said the player put another ball in play under a Local Rule. We are assuming it was E-5, which is used as an alternative to taking stroke and distance or playing a provisional.

 

[Springveldt]

I guess I didn't know this rule properly till reading it now. So for a par 4, you tee off and it's in the semi and by some unfortunate luck you play a wrong ball, get onto the green, notice it isn't yours and you go back and look for yours and don't find. If you don't go all the way back to the tee and play from there you are disqualified?

I can recall this only happening to me once, teed off, found "my" ball in the first cut, hit up to the green, realised it wasn't mine but PP's told me to putt out and add 2 shots. I had only been back playing for a couple of years so I guess that round should have been a DQ as it was the last hole.

What a stupid rule making someone go all the way back to the tee, that's not exactly going to speed up play.

Also, when would KVC come into it? If all 4 people agree the ball was there and someone on another hole has probably played it, is that enough to drop another and just continue? Like when everyone agrees the ball is in a hazard?

 

[Swango1980]

I guess I didn't know this rule properly till reading it now. So for a par 4, you tee off and it's in the semi and by some unfortunate luck you play a wrong ball, get onto the green, notice it isn't yours and you go back and look for yours and don't find. If you don't go all the way back to the tee and play from there you are disqualified?

I can recall this only happening to me once, teed off, found "my" ball in the first cut, hit up to the green, realised it wasn't mine but PP's told me to putt out and add 2 shots. I had only been back playing for a couple of years so I guess that round should have been a DQ as it was the last hole.

What a stupid rule making someone go all the way back to the tee, that's not exactly going to speed up play.

Also, when would KVC come into it? If all 4 people agree the ball was there and someone on another hole has probably played it, is that enough to drop another and just continue? Like when everyone agrees the ball is in a hazard?

Would the stupid part of this not be the "playing the wrong ball" part? I don't think you can put this down to bad luck?

 

[Springveldt]

Would the stupid part of this not be the "playing the wrong ball" part? I don't think you can put this down to bad luck?

Well yeah, of course that is stupid but at the same time the only option of not being DQ'ed is to walk back 400 yards, through at least 1 group behind you, hit your shot and play the hole at breakneck speed to catch up and be a bit of a sweaty mess while the group behind all stand with their hands on their hips.

How about it's treated like you fked up, get a 3 shot penalty, finish the hole with the other ball then move on. Saves everyone time. Just seems an overly stupid rule to me.

 

[Swango1980]

Well yeah, of course that is stupid but at the same time the only option of not being DQ'ed is to walk back 400 yards, through at least 1 group behind you, hit your shot and play the hole at breakneck speed to catch up and be a bit of a sweaty mess while the group behind all stand with their hands on their hips.

How about it's treated like you fked up, get a 3 shot penalty, finish the hole with the other ball then move on. Saves everyone time. Just seems an overly stupid rule to me.

I wouldn't worry about the groups behind. Just wave them through. It would cost you time anyway, as you'd need to go back to where you played the wrong ball. Maybe it would take a bit more time to go back to the tee. But, then again, I'd probably played over 3,000 rounds of golf, and never remember this scenario happening to me (I've played the wrong ball a couple of times, but never remember the extreme scenario of having to go back all that distance I played 2 shots ago). So, I doubt the rules need to be adapted because they are creating significant slow play issues in the game.

Besides, why should the player be able to play the ball from a point they don't even know their original ball was? They'd ultimately be making assumptions.

What about more common scenarios that you could worry about first. Such as hitting a ball into a big bush from the tee. I see it go in the bush, I know it is there somewhere, but I cannot find it. I can't just take a penalty drop, I need to go all the way back to the tee. Or, you find your ball, it is unplayable. But, it is also unplayable in the entire area, so not feasible to take 2 club relief, or back in line relief. It would be lovely just to drop one out into a playable area for an additional penalty, but ultimately I can't, and need to go back to where I last played.

 

[woofers]

The OP said the player put another ball in play under a Local Rule. We are assuming it was E-5, which is used as an alternative to taking stroke and distance or playing a provisional.

But not allowed for an acceptable score for handicapping purposes under England Golf Rules of Handicapping.

 

[doublebogey7]

I was basing my KVC on the OPs statement that the player had “intentionally”, not accidentally, played the wrong ball.
I assume the local rule he used to put another ball in play was E-5? If so, this local rule is not allowed in competitions for an acceptable handicap score.
Not relevant to this ruling but I wonder if the player who played the wrong ball was in the competition, and corrected his mistake.

I guess I didn't know this rule properly till reading it now. So for a par 4, you tee off and it's in the semi and by some unfortunate luck you play a wrong ball, get onto the green, notice it isn't yours and you go back and look for yours and don't find. If you don't go all the way back to the tee and play from there you are disqualified?

I can recall this only happening to me once, teed off, found "my" ball in the first cut, hit up to the green, realised it wasn't mine but PP's told me to putt out and add 2 shots. I had only been back playing for a couple of years so I guess that round should have been a DQ as it was the last hole.

What a stupid rule making someone go all the way back to the tee, that's not exactly going to speed up play.

Also, when would KVC come into it? If all 4 people agree the ball was there and someone on another hole has probably played it, is that enough to drop another and just continue? Like when everyone agrees the ball is in a hazard?

To satisfy KVC you must have 95% certainty. The opinion of others may help in you getting to that position but it is by no means enough. In my view you did not have enough evidence to satisfy KVC in the situation you describe, you would have needed to see the player hit what you were sure was your ball.

 

[cookelad]

I think OP is saying they are intentionally playing the first hole and not intentionally played his PP ball. Well, that's how I read it after reading it 3 times.

I thought that it was obvious