Stroke Index 18

[Springveldt]

Not just the seniors . Those that don't most likely should but ego gets in the way.

Totally agree with your last paragraph. In a wonderfully well designed course, they are the clear weakness.

Or they are the defence of the course as they are so bloody hard. Not only long, but long narrow greens and the 212 yards one is typically into the wind. I've had to hit driver quite a few times as well but mainly hit 3 or 4 hybrid to leave it just short or just on the front and a chip/long putt up the green.

Must admit I do like it when I visit other courses and was hitting 8/9/PW into par 3's rather than woods, hybrids and long irons.

 

[Springveldt]

One of our par 3s is 212 off the whites, 200 off the yellows. Another is 197/185.

Most of the seniors I play with take driver on both.

To me, par 3s should be about accuracy, not how far you can hit it. If it was my course, I’d take 50 yards off all of our par 3s, that would make them a lot more enjoyable.

I've always felt if they were making changes they could extend the 4th by moving the tee box back into the trees and making it a short par 4, would bring the pond into play as well. Same with 12, move tee box back into the trees and turn it into a par 5, it already is essentially anyway being 460 yards into the wind. Probably less than 5% of the membership can get their in 2 most days.

Lots of work and I'm not sure they would get permission with it being a nature area.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Or they are the defence of the course as they are so bloody hard. Not only long, but long narrow greens and the 212 yards one is typically into the wind. I've had to hit driver quite a few times as well but mainly hit 3 or 4 hybrid to leave it just short or just on the front and a chip/long putt up the green.

Must admit I do like it when I visit other courses and was hitting 8/9/PW into par 3's rather than woods, hybrids and long irons.

I think the course has some other defences, give us other mid to higher h/c something .

I heard a few talking about extending the 4th like that. Make it a great risk / reward hole. It would be something different for the course, better than the hole is now imo.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Our par 3's are definitely your courses defense and if you can play them in level 2's then you are likely to have a good score (subject to no other car crashes of course)

 

[Neilds]

Our par 3's are definitely your courses defense and if you can play them in level 2's then you are likely to have a good score (subject to no other car crashes of course)

Hopefully you mean 2 pointers and not birdie every par 3?

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Hopefully you mean 2 pointers and not birdie every par 3?

Yes points

 

[rosecott]

That depends on whether or not the SIs have been set up for difficulty or match play.

We tried 2 cards but ended reverting to just one based upon difficulty.

Getting difficulty right is very easy, it is just a press of a button on a computer.

But, did you also take into account all the other recommended factors such as:

Odd numbers on front 9, even on back 9 or vice versa
Even spread of allocations throughout the round
Si 1 and 2 near the middle of each 9

etc etc

Relying solely on difficulty stats could make the spread of SIs very weird. EG will, on request, give to a committee a recommended SI allocation in which all factors are taken into account.

 

[jim8flog]

But, did you also take into account all the other recommended factors such as:

Odd numbers on front 9, even on back 9 or vice versa
Even spread of allocations throughout the round
Si 1 and 2 near the middle of each 9

etc etc

Relying solely on difficulty stats could make the spread of SIs very weird. EG will, on request, give to a committee a recommended SI allocation in which all factors are taken into account.

This was done many years when the recommendation first came out, maybe 20 years ago.

We play very little match play here so I doubt if the committee would be interested. All comps are either stableford or handicap medal one of our annual knockouts comps only had 5 players sign up last year.

When I was on committee I tried to get them to try the two card system again but nobody was interested.

None of our members ever complained about how we use the stroke indexes now but apparently (before my time) quite a few did when we had a match play card as well as a stableford card.

 

[rosecott]

This was done many years when the recommendation first came out, maybe 20 years ago.

We play very little match play here so I doubt if the committee would be interested. All comps are either stableford or handicap medal one of our annual knockouts comps only had 5 players sign up last year.

When I was on committee I tried to get them to try the two card system again but nobody was interested.

None of our members ever complained about how we use the stroke indexes now but apparently (before my time) quite a few did when we had a match play card as well as a stableford card.

That doesn't really answer my question.

Are your current SIs based solely on statistics on difficulty playing to the par of the hole?

 

[SteveJay]

15th at Fleetwood is a 500 yard par 5 (493 off the yellows) and is our stroke index 18. Never the easiest hole on the course if the wind is in your face, as it often is as the hole plays towards the north/north west.

 

[jim8flog]

That doesn't really answer my question.

Are your current SIs based solely on statistics on difficulty playing to the par of the hole?

Our SIs are based upon the difficulty of the holes based upon accumulated data from Saturday medals which have a very good range of abilities playing.

When we had just one card based upon match play some of the SIs were plain ridiculous when playing Stableford.

 

[clubchamp98]

I played a course yesterday that the stoke index 18 was a 500 yard Par 5. It got me thinking that I can't remember ever playing a course before where this was the case.
Even more surprising when it had three relatively short par 3's and a couple of quite short par 4s .
Are there many other courses with a par 5 as S.I. 18?

Yes ours is.
485 yds par 5
Very easy 5 but a lot of problems if you go for it in two.

 

[harpo_72]

I don’t really care about SI, I judge the holes and what is easy and what is hard for me.
I understand it has to be there to make the match play stuff work.
However if you just play the hole to your strengths then I am sure you will score better.
Match play can be seen as reactive when chasing a lead down, but in the end the best strategy is to play the course and get aggressive on the green when you need to. If you get reactive you lose a grip of the game, let them concern themselves with SI .. just play the hole the way that works for you.

 

[BTatHome]

I don’t really care about SI, I judge the holes and what is easy and what is hard for me.
I understand it has to be there to make the match play stuff work.
However if you just play the hole to your strengths then I am sure you will score better.
Match play can be seen as reactive when chasing a lead down, but in the end the best strategy is to play the course and get aggressive on the green when you need to. If you get reactive you lose a grip of the game, let them concern themselves with SI .. just play the hole the way that works for you.

surprising how many people would score much better if they ignored the SI and just played the holes

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Our SI 18 is a short 260yd dogleg par 4. It’s a 7i, wedge. But the dogleg nature of it has many Billy big hitters - or some who think they are, going for the 230yds or so crow flies - they get it wrong and walk off with bogey or (much) worse. More fool them tbh. As SI 18 it has given me more birdies than any other hole on the course.

Our three par 5s are SIs 1, 3, 12 and 13 (12 is our 1st and our 18th is 13 or it would be lower)…and they merit their SIs.

 

[KenL]

I played a course yesterday that the stoke index 18 was a 500 yard Par 5. It got me thinking that I can't remember ever playing a course before where this was the case.
Even more surprising when it had three relatively short par 3's and a couple of quite short par 4s .
Are there many other courses with a par 5 as S.I. 18?

A short par 5 like that could well be the easiest hole on the course.
I thought that SIs were set so that they were spread out rather than hole difficulty?

 

[sjw]

Kilworth Springs.
494 yards yellow
504 yards white
535 blue
(It's not the easiest hole on the course!)

View attachment 53664

From my vague recollection that's about hole 3? I might be totally wrong. I think 8 runs alongside it?

 

[Crow]

From my vague recollection that's about hole 3? I might be totally wrong. I think 8 runs alongside it?

Your memory is perfect!
(And the par five 8th is index 16!)

 

[sjw]

Your memory is perfect!
(And the par five 8th is index 16!)

It was that ring of bunkers that did it. I remember looking at a course overview before I came over

 

[Ye Olde Boomer]

I played a course yesterday that the stoke index 18 was a 500 yard Par 5. It got me thinking that I can't remember ever playing a course before where this was the case.
Even more surprising when it had three relatively short par 3's and a couple of quite short par 4s .
Are there many other courses with a par 5 as S.I. 18?

We have a par 5 "17" stroke index hole on the front nine.
We don't have a par 5 "18" stroke index hole on the back only because the back has a 111 yard par 3.

The difficulty factors are not exact
as all the odd number ones are on the front
and all the even number ones are on the back.
I'm not sure if that's the case with your "out and in" nines as it is with our "front and back" nines.

Our course has six par threes, only eight par fours, and four par fives.
You're not going to play the six par 3s in eighteen or better.
Forget about it. It's not happening. Even the 111 yarder bites once in a while with a cruel pin placement.

The par 5s, however, were clearly laid out as the course's first aid holes, there to stop the bleeding.
Three of them are just a bit under 500 yards--doglegs in each direction and one straight.

The longest one of the four has a steeply downhill drive onto a flat lie landing area,
a fairway wide enough for a cricket match on the left and rugby on the right,
and a billiards table flat green approximately the size of Australia.
I've even made birdies on it.