Smoothing the bunker to care for the course

[Steven Rules]

It is grey.

Clarification 8.1a/2

Examples of Actions Unlikely to Create Potential Advantage

Examples of actions that are unlikely to improve the conditions affecting the stroke (that is, unlikely to give a player a potential advantage) include when:

* Before making a 150-yard approach shot from the general area, a player repairs a small pitch-mark, smooths a footprint in a bunker or replaces a divot in a divot hole on their line of play several yards in front of the ball.

* A player's ball lies in the middle of a long, shallow-faced fairway bunker, and the player smooths footprints several yards in front of the ball and on their line of play before playing a long shot over the smoothed area (see Rule 12.2b(2) - When Touching Sand Does Not Result in Penalty).

 

[KenL]

The player is not allowed to improve the conditions on his line of play which is the line where he intends his ball to go after his stroke. Does he really intend that his ball follows a line that leaves his ball in the bunker?

Does that mean you can rake a bunker before you play any shot except for the line of play?

 

[Swango1980]

Does that mean you can rake a bunker before you play any shot except for the line of play?

If it is for the purpose of caring for the course, and not a "sneaky" way to test the condition of the sand

 

[rulie]

Does that mean you can rake a bunker before you play any shot except for the line of play?

Perhaps, provided that the purpose is "caring for the course" and is not for the purpose of testing. And recall that "line of play" includes a reasonable distance on either side of the desired line.
In order to avoid the appearance of evil, do all the raking after the ball is played from the bunker!

 

[salfordlad]

Trouble is from the OPs description he was not talking about the far end of the bunker. I too would rake the area if it was that far away from my ball or possible finishing point of my ball if I failed to get out of the bunker.

In that bolded case then there is useful guidance for you in this thread. If a referee witnessing this asks you (appropriately) why you are doing that you need to identify caring for the course as a reason or you are in breach of rule 8.2 and get the general penalty. Having additional reasons - eg improve conditions for my next possible stroke - does not change the ruling of no penalty.

 

[salfordlad]

If it is for the purpose of caring for the course, and not a "sneaky" way to test the condition of the sand

Perhaps, provided that the purpose is "caring for the course" and is not for the purpose of testing. And recall that "line of play" includes a reasonable distance on either side of the desired line.
In order to avoid the appearance of evil, do all the raking after the ball is played from the bunker!

On the situation we are discussing (chipping over a bunker), if it is not improving CATS (such as line of play) AND it is caring for the course, there is still no penalty even if it is intended to test the condition of the sand. That latter breach (rule 12.2) only applies if the ball is at rest in the bunker when the testing occurs.

 

[Neilds]

There is one way to avoid all these ‘is it, isn’t it’ scenarios

 

[salfordlad]

There is one way to avoid all these ‘is it, isn’t it’ scenarios

For sure, there is an uncommon degree of noise in this thread, but there are some very substantial and not well understood rules issues here as well.

 

[hambugerpete]

There is one way to avoid all these ‘is it, isn’t it’ scenarios

Yes learn the rules and apply them correctly.

 

[Neilds]

Yes learn the rules and apply them correctly.

As this thread has proved, there are a lot of grey areas in the rule that can be interpreted by people in different ways. One man’s care for the course is another man’s improving the lie. Why put that doubt in someone’s mind and risk being called a cheat? As you are pointing out, many people don’t know the rules and they will talk very loud in the clubhouse, calling you out for improving your lie and it will take a lot to convince them otherwise.

 

[Swango1980]

As this thread has proved, there are a lot of grey areas in the rule that can be interpreted by people in different ways. One man’s care for the course is another man’s improving the lie. Why put that doubt in someone’s mind and risk being called a cheat? As you are pointing out, many people don’t know the rules and they will talk very loud in the clubhouse, calling you out for improving your lie and it will take a lot to convince them otherwise.

Indeed. When playing preferred lies socially with mates, I don't always mark the ball if I'm just picking it up, quick clean on trousers, and putting back down

In comps with other people, I'll always mark it. Not worth the effort trying to explain the rule if they query it. Worse still if they stay quiet, then start saying to others after that I don't even mark the ball, and they wrongly suspect me as a rule breaker without me ever getting the chance to explain

 

[hambugerpete]

As this thread has proved, there are a lot of grey areas in the rule that can be interpreted by people in different ways. One man’s care for the course is another man’s improving the lie. Why put that doubt in someone’s mind and risk being called a cheat? As you are pointing out, many people don’t know the rules and they will talk very loud in the clubhouse, calling you out for improving your lie and it will take a lot to convince them otherwise.

This just isn't happening. Sorry mate youre just talking utter nonsense. How is raking the bunker improving my lie? Id have to move the ball rake under it then put it back.
There are no "people" in the clubhouse making loud accusations .
I wish more people would rake the bunkers in this way!

 

[hambugerpete]

Indeed. When playing preferred lies socially with mates, I don't always mark the ball if I'm just picking it up, quick clean on trousers, and putting back down

In comps with other people, I'll always mark it. Not worth the effort trying to explain the rule if they query it. Worse still if they stay quiet, then start saying to others after that I don't even mark the ball, and they wrongly suspect me as a rule breaker without me ever getting the chance to explain

I understand your reasoning but another rule that's changed and playing by the old way does nothing to bring the game forward. If the ball needs marking I will , if not I won't.
I've no concerns about these mysterious clubhouse people.

 

[Neilds]

This just isn't happening. Sorry mate youre just talking utter nonsense. How is raking the bunker improving my lie? Id have to move the ball rake under it then put it back.
There are no "people" in the clubhouse making loud accusations .
I wish more people would rake the bunkers in this way!

This isn’t just about your situation which is probably clear cut, but about the other scenarios that are being discussed here.

 

[Swango1980]

I understand your reasoning but another rule that's changed and playing by the old way does nothing to bring the game forward. If the ball needs marking I will , if not I won't.
I've no concerns about these mysterious clubhouse people.

That's fine, that's your personal view on it. Was just giving mine. I've been around long enough to know that people talk, and often jump to conclusions based on their own ignorance (and there are plenty of ignorant golfers, especially away from these forums). So, in the specific scenario I brought up, I simply said I prefer to mark the ball in competitions when cleaning it. As far as I'm aware, there is no Rule that prohibits this?

And, in my personal view, by not marking the ball (although permitted), I don't actually believe I would be doing anything to "bring the game forward", so that isn't something that concerns me as much as it concerns you.

 

[hambugerpete]

That's fine, that's your personal view on it. Was just giving mine. I've been around long enough to know that people talk, and often jump to conclusions based on their own ignorance (and there are plenty of ignorant golfers, especially away from these forums). So, in the specific scenario I brought up, I simply said I prefer to mark the ball in competitions when cleaning it. As far as I'm aware, there is no Rule that prohibits this?

And, in my personal view, by not marking the ball (although permitted), I don't actually believe I would be doing anything to "bring the game forward", so that isn't something that concerns me as much as it concerns you.

Exactly and after having so many people tell me bs rules when I first played in comps I feel that we should do our best to educate, rather than just carry on with the old way because it's easier.

 

[Swango1980]

Exactly and after having so many people tell me bs rules when I first played in comps I feel that we should do our best to educate, rather than just carry on with the old way because it's easier.

If it makes you a bit happier, you'll be pleased to know that I will occasionally put with the flag still in.

However, often I will have the flag taken out, as I prefer it out. That isn't me carrying on with the old way because it is easier, as I'm still allowed to take the flag out if I wish, so I usually do.

 

[hambugerpete]

If it makes you a bit happier, you'll be pleased to know that I will occasionally put with the flag still in.

However, often I will have the flag taken out, as I prefer it out. That isn't me carrying on with the old way because it is easier, as I'm still allowed to take the flag out if I wish, so I usually do.

That my friend is just a nonsense reply for replies sake in an effort to sound clever.
The only reason I keep seeing given for not marking or raking is the worry of being called a cheat , if youre so insecure that that worries you then there is little else to say.

 

[Swango1980]

That my friend is just a nonsense reply for replies sake in an effort to sound clever.
The only reason I keep seeing given for not marking or raking is the worry of being called a cheat , if youre so insecure that that worries you then there is little else to say.

Now then, would you consider yours a nonsense reply just for the sake of it?

Maybe it didn't come out in text, but my comment was meant to be clearly tongue in cheek for a bit of amusement.

I've obviously said what I've said on marking the ball. It is permitted, I do it. It takes no extra effort, as I mark it with a tee in my pocket. I don't think I'd be taking the game forward by marking the ball. Unlike you, I don't have this sense that if I always lift the ball without marking the ball, then it'll somehow be for the greater good and others around be will be grateful that they learn from my actions. I've no inner feeling that I must not mark the ball because I'll be making a statement that needs to be learnt by others.

It goes back to raking the bunker. It can be done if it is for the purpose of caring for the course. But, many will not do it if there is any chance someone might question their motives, and I don't see an issue with that. I also don't take my golf bag (I carry) into the bunker or go and take practice swings in a nearby bunker because the rules say I can. Perhaps I would if I felt it would be a huge benefit to me, but I don't and I just find it unnecessary explaining things to people that feel it must be against the rules. Not marking the ball for preferred lies does not provide me with any added advantage, so I mark it in competitions because I see it as the most hassle free option. I see no controversy in that.

 

[jim8flog]

In that bolded case then there is useful guidance for you in this thread. If a referee witnessing this asks you (appropriately) why you are doing that you need to identify caring for the course as a reason or you are in breach of rule 8.2 and get the general penalty. Having additional reasons - eg improve conditions for my next possible stroke - does not change the ruling of no penalty.

I have never in my life played a game of golf where a referee was present however I have been one on a couple of occasions.