Smoothing the bunker to care for the course

[hambugerpete]

One chap once tried to give me a penalty for picking the rake out of the bunker before I played my shot. I didn't rake or anything, but he said that I was in contact with the rake, while the rake was in contact with the sand, and thus I was technically testing the conditions of the sand. It was when I was fairly new to golf, but even then I laughed off his claim

Yes had many similar experiences with regards to various rules over the years. Thats why it's important to be clear what the actual rule is and not what we think it should be.

 

[salfordlad]

Supplementary question:
If I'm about to chip over a bunker, am I allowed to rake it first in case the ball ends up in it? I had always assumed that wasn't allowed, but your post implies otherwise.

Not a simple issue and the precise facts influence the answer. If you are specifically referring to line of play, this is a Rule 8.1 issue and 8.1a/1 and 8.1a/2 offer some published guidance. Alternatively, if what you are raking are parts of the bunker (you are concerned your next stroke could end up there) that are not part of the current Conditions Affecting the Stroke the answer lies in Rule 8.2 - and there is more than one answer there, depending on the precise facts.

 

[Swango1980]

Not a simple issue and the precise facts influence the answer. If you are specifically referring to line of play, this is a Rule 8.1 issue and 8.1a/1 and 8.1a/2 offer some published guidance. Alternatively, if what you are raking are parts of the bunker (you are concerned your next stroke could end up there) that are not part of the current Conditions Affecting the Stroke the answer lies in Rule 8.2 - and there is more than one answer there, depending on the precise facts.

Given that the question specifically stated they were doing it for the purpose that their ball may end up there, I always assumed that would strictly not be allowed. However, 8.2b exception simply says there is no penalty if the player alters these conditions to care for the course. Could it therefore not be argued that when the player rakes the bunker, he is both doing so in case his next shot ends up there AND caring for the course. Thus, as Caring for the Course is simply one of two explanations as to why the player is doing it, there is no penalty?

Or, would a referee generally just come to the conclusion that "you admitted one of the reasons you raked it was in case your ball ended up there, stonewall penalty for me, it is irrelevant that you also happened to be caring for the course, and would have raked the bunker afterwards anyway because some other golfer left it in a right state"

 

[wjemather]

https://www.golfmonthly.com/golf-rules/can-you-rake-a-bunker-before-your-shot

 

[bobmac]

https://www.golfmonthly.com/golf-rules/can-you-rake-a-bunker-before-your-shot

''This is one of those questions where some golfers perhaps think this is a complete no-no and would be looking to try and penalise you the moment the rake touches the sand. In reality, the answer is actually both ‘yes’ and ‘no’.''

In my opinion, don't even go there, it could end up with a long discussion/argument over the interpretation of the rule.
Not good if people are waiting behind you, especially in match play.
Get in, hit your shot, tidy/rake the bunker then.....in the bar afterwards....have the discussion about what you could have done without ''testing the surface''

 

[salfordlad]

https://www.golfmonthly.com/golf-rules/can-you-rake-a-bunker-before-your-shot

This usefully covers a range of issues, but doesn't deal with all the angles raised above.

Given that the question specifically stated they were doing it for the purpose that their ball may end up there, I always assumed that would strictly not be allowed. However, 8.2b exception simply says there is no penalty if the player alters these conditions to care for the course. Could it therefore not be argued that when the player rakes the bunker, he is both doing so in case his next shot ends up there AND caring for the course. Thus, as Caring for the Course is simply one of two explanations as to why the player is doing it, there is no penalty?

Or, would a referee generally just come to the conclusion that "you admitted one of the reasons you raked it was in case your ball ended up there, stonewall penalty for me, it is irrelevant that you also happened to be caring for the course, and would have raked the bunker afterwards anyway because some other golfer left it in a right state"

A critical issue is whether the area being improved is part of the CATS, specifically here the line of play. If so, it is a Rule 8.1 issue, raking before the stroke would improve CATS for the stroke, and get the general penalty under that rule. The care for the course exception does not apply to a rule 8.1 breach.

However, if the player is improving "other physical conditions" for the next stroke (and the action does not improve the CATS - line of play in this case - for the current stroke) then it is purely a rule 8.2 issue. And 8.2 comes with the care for the course exception. In sum, if no improvement to the CATS and the player is intending to care for the course, then no penalty for taking the action; but if the player is not intending to care for the course, then general penalty for breach of 8.2.

These are not straightforward issues.

 

[bobmac]

''This is one of those questions where some golfers perhaps think this is a complete no-no and would be looking to try and penalise you the moment the rake touches the sand. In reality, the answer is actually both ‘yes’ and ‘no’.''

In my opinion, don't even go there, it could end up with a long discussion/argument over the interpretation of the rule.
Not good if people are waiting behind you, especially in match play.
Get in, hit your shot, tidy/rake the bunker then.....in the bar afterwards....have the discussion about what you could have done without ''testing the surface''

 

[bobmac]

These are not straightforward issues.

If you don't touch the sand before the stroke, it's very straightforward

 

[hambugerpete]

''This is one of those questions where some golfers perhaps think this is a complete no-no and would be looking to try and penalise you the moment the rake touches the sand. In reality, the answer is actually both ‘yes’ and ‘no’.''

In my opinion, don't even go there, it could end up with a long discussion/argument over the interpretation of the rule.
Not good if people are waiting behind you, especially in match play.
Get in, hit your shot, tidy/rake the bunker then.....in the bar afterwards....have the discussion about what you could have done without ''testing the surface''

I'm sorry but this is bonkers, so it's better for whomever is behind me to watch me wait till it's my turn to play, go and get rake from the far end of the bunker , play my shot, rake my footprints then walk back to the other end of the bunker and tidy up those prints too. That's the very essence of slow play FFS

 

[Slab]

''This is one of those questions where some golfers perhaps think this is a complete no-no and would be looking to try and penalise you the moment the rake touches the sand. In reality, the answer is actually both ‘yes’ and ‘no’.''

In my opinion, don't even go there, it could end up with a long discussion/argument over the interpretation of the rule.
Not good if people are waiting behind you, especially in match play.
Get in, hit your shot, tidy/rake the bunker then.....in the bar afterwards....have the discussion about what you could have done without ''testing the surface''

Maybe not much point discussing it if the 'advice' will always be "get in, hit your shot, tidy/rake etc"

 

[bobmac]

I'm sorry but this is bonkers, so it's better for whomever is behind me to watch me wait till it's my turn to play, go and get rake from the far end of the bunker , play my shot, rake my footprints then walk back to the other end of the bunker and tidy up those prints too. That's the very essence of slow play FFS

No, you get the rake while waiting your turn to play.
And I'm sure people wouldn't mind waiting 20 seconds for me to rake the bunker that they might go in. Better that than 5 minutes arguing if you were testing the surface or not, then playing 2 balls because you can't agree and having to recreate the condition of the bunker before he called you up for raking it.

Maybe not much point discussing it if the 'advice' will always be "get in, hit your shot, tidy/rake etc"

Hp said

Yes had many similar experiences with regards to various rules over the years. Thats why it's important to be clear what the actual rule is and not what we think it should be.

I was suggesting that the discussion could wait till the clubhouse

 

[Neilds]

I'm sorry but this is bonkers, so it's better for whomever is behind me to watch me wait till it's my turn to play, go and get rake from the far end of the bunker , play my shot, rake my footprints then walk back to the other end of the bunker and tidy up those prints too. That's the very essence of slow play FFS

How about, walk around the bunker to get the rake whilst your partners are taking their shots, play your shot, rake less footprints as you haven't walked through the length of the bunker and then carry on. Takes even less time than your version

 

[Swango1980]

If you don't touch the sand before the stroke, it's very straightforward

Very insightful. I'll go a step further, it is very straightforward if you don't go in the bunker in the first place

 

[PaulMdj]

Yeah. After Post #2 we should have all kept our traps shut. If only forums worked that way...

See post #2

 

[doublebogey7]

No, you get the rake while waiting your turn to play.
And I'm sure people wouldn't mind waiting 20 seconds for me to rake the bunker that they might go in. Better that than 5 minutes arguing if you were testing the surface or not, then playing 2 balls because you can't agree and having to recreate the condition of the bunker before he called you up for raking it.

Hp said

I was suggesting that the discussion could wait till the clubhouse

The poster indicated that in order


The discussion should always wait until the end of the round. Players are responsible for applying the rules. If someone else in the group believes they have acted incorrectly they should then simply inform the player that they will raise the issue later, no neeed to stand around delaying play discussing it.

 

[hambugerpete]

How about, walk around the bunker to get the rake whilst your partners are taking their shots, play your shot, rake less footprints as you haven't walked through the length of the bunker and then carry on. Takes even less time than your version

What load of nonsense. Just play to the rules it's very easy no need to add your own extras.

 

[Swango1980]

See post #2

? You mean the post I referenced?

 

[chrisd]

I'm sorry but this is bonkers, so it's better for whomever is behind me to watch me wait till it's my turn to play, go and get rake from the far end of the bunker , play my shot, rake my footprints then walk back to the other end of the bunker and tidy up those prints too. That's the very essence of slow play FFS

The Chart Hills course in Kent has a bunker several hundred yards long, I certainly would rake it if there weren't enough rakes where my ball might be!

 

[jim8flog]

I'm sorry but this is bonkers, so it's better for whomever is behind me to watch me wait till it's my turn to play, go and get rake from the far end of the bunker , play my shot, rake my footprints then walk back to the other end of the bunker and tidy up those prints too. That's the very essence of slow play FFS

Trouble is from the OPs description he was not talking about the far end of the bunker. I too would rake the area if it was that far away from my ball or possible finishing point of my ball if I failed to get out of the bunker.

 

[hambugerpete]

Trouble is from the OPs description he was not talking about the far end of the bunker. I too would rake the area if it was that far away from my ball or possible finishing point of my ball if I failed to get out of the bunker.

Tbh the rules been about long enough now that no one has questioned it in a long time. It's not marking when on winter rules thats the new one to get angry about