Refusal to mark and lift ball

[rulie]

And the appropriate Rule numbers?

Is this a quiz?

 

[Troymcclure]

Why is the Rule not DQ?

 

[rulefan]

Is this a quiz?

Probably . If it looks like ...........

 

[Pants]

Reminds me of an inter club match many years ago where on the 18th my partner and I were just short of the green. My turn to play with a punch and run but my partner's ball was on my line so I asked for it to be marked commenting that they mustn't clean it. One of the opponents was up in arms. You can't do that - you aren't on the green. We politely explained that we could and carried on. We won one up Continued comments in the clubhouse after the event and the other team members eventually told the complainant that they should shut up and read the rules.

Funny thing was that earlier in the round, both opponents were close in the same bunker and the complainant asked their partner to mark their ball as it interfered with their shot.

 

[D-S]

Just as an additional point, if the original scenario was in a 4BB match, would the General Penalty apply to both players or just the one refusing?
Also if it was 4BB strokeplay would the General Penalty apply to both players in the side or just the ‘refuser’?

 

[salfordlad]

Just as an additional point, if the original scenario was in a 4BB match, would the General Penalty apply to both players or just the one refusing?
Also if it was 4BB strokeplay would the General Penalty apply to both players in the side or just the ‘refuser’?

Normally only the culprit unless their partner is assisted by the breach or an opponent is hurt by the breach - see Rule 23.9 and it's clarifications.

 

[D-S]

Normally only the culprit unless their partner is assisted by the breach or an opponent is hurt by the breach - see Rule 23.9 and it's clarifications.

Having now read 23.9 and its clarifications, in the case cited, as the breach (refusal to lift) does in fact hurt as opponents play as the 'unlifted' ball interferes with the opponent play, does this mean that both players get the General Penalty?


I would assume this line from 23.9 covers it? - "In Four-Ball match play, if a player's breach of a Rule hurts an opponent's play, the player's partner also gets the same penalty."

 

[Swango1980]

Having now read 23.9 and its clarifications, in the case cited, as the breach (refusal to lift) does in fact hurt as opponents play as the 'unlifted' ball interferes with the opponent play, does this mean that both players get the General Penalty?


I would assume this line from 23.9 covers it? - "In Four-Ball match play, if a player's breach of a Rule hurts an opponent's play, the player's partner also gets the same penalty."

The must surely be the only interpretation?

The reason that lifting the ball is so that it does not interfere with the opponents play. So, refusing to do so would imply that the ball IS interfering with the opponent's play.

 

[salfordlad]

The must surely be the only interpretation?

The reason that lifting the ball is so that it does not interfere with the opponents play. So, refusing to do so would imply that the ball IS interfering with the opponent's play.

This is how I read it also. But I have not seen an official view on this and there are some scenarios I would like to take upstairs.

 

[rulie]

This is how I read it also. But I have not seen an official view on this and there are some scenarios I would like to take upstairs.

Agree that it reads as a penalty to the side, and will look forward to seeing what you find out from the upper floor(s).

 

[Troymcclure]

Why is the Rule not DQ?

Fellow competitor’s ball is millimetres in front of mine, just off the green, directly in line. I ask him to mark it. He says he knows it’s permitted within the rules but refuses.

I don’t see why that shouldn’t be a DQ but no replies means I’m probably alone so I’ll ask instead opinions on how one would proceed?

He doesn’t get the penalty until I play my ball so what we doing: tapping it sideways? Hitting it hard against his ball in the hope it advances toward the hole a bit, then FC replaces his ball and gets the penalty?

Farcical. I must be missing something.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Fellow competitor’s ball is millimetres in front of mine, just off the green, directly in line. I ask him to mark it. He says he knows it’s permitted within the rules but refuses.

I don’t see why that shouldn’t be a DQ but no replies means I’m probably alone so I’ll ask instead opinions on how one would proceed?

He doesn’t get the penalty until I play my ball so what we doing: tapping it sideways? Hitting it hard against his ball in the hope it advances toward the hole a bit, then FC replaces his ball and gets the penalty?

Farcical. I must be missing something.

What if you mark it, roll it to one side, without his permission, play your shot. Then return the ball.

Unless he physically stops you, interesting moment, I don't think you get penalised

Let's face it, if they refuse to mark the atmosphere is going to be icy for the rest of the round anyway. Doing the above isn't going to make it worse. Let the committee sort it out after, I think in your favour.

(We would all hope that none of the above would never be necessary)

 

[nickjdavis]

Fellow competitor’s ball is millimetres in front of mine, just off the green, directly in line. I ask him to mark it. He says he knows it’s permitted within the rules but refuses.

I don’t see why that shouldn’t be a DQ but no replies means I’m probably alone so I’ll ask instead opinions on how one would proceed?

He doesn’t get the penalty until I play my ball so what we doing: tapping it sideways? Hitting it hard against his ball in the hope it advances toward the hole a bit, then FC replaces his ball and gets the penalty?

Farcical. I must be missing something.

If strokeplay....you move his ball...no penalty to you or him. Rule 9.6 applies. He places the ball back where it lay. (Personally I'd be moving it as far as I could with a driver.)

In matchplay...tell your opponent you will be claiming the hole, give the facts to the committee and ask them to rule on the matter....15.3b applies

 

[Troymcclure]

If strokeplay....you move his ball...no penalty to you or him. Rule 9.6 applies. He places the ball back where it lay. (Personally I'd be moving it as far as I could with a driver.)

In matchplay...tell your opponent you will be claiming the hole, give the facts to the committee and ask them to rule on the matter....15.3b applies

I’ve re-read 15.3b and see nothing that could warrant Committee involvement. Or is the word “require” rather than “ask” in the sentence “The player may require the other player to mark the spot…” significant?

 

[Troymcclure]

Let's face it, if they refuse to mark the atmosphere is going to be icy for the rest of the round anyway.

Indeed, and salfordlad informs us that repeated refusal is a serious breach. Why does it need to be repeated? Housery is housery.

 

[Swango1980]

If so

Fellow competitor’s ball is millimetres in front of mine, just off the green, directly in line. I ask him to mark it. He says he knows it’s permitted within the rules but refuses.

I don’t see why that shouldn’t be a DQ but no replies means I’m probably alone so I’ll ask instead opinions on how one would proceed?

He doesn’t get the penalty until I play my ball so what we doing: tapping it sideways? Hitting it hard against his ball in the hope it advances toward the hole a bit, then FC replaces his ball and gets the penalty?

Farcical. I must be missing something.

If anybody is that blatant about knowing the rule, and yet refusing to mark the ball anyway, knowing it has serious implications on your shot, I would define that as completely against the spirit of the game.

Does that warrant a DQ?

 

[Troymcclure]

…knowing it has serious implications on your shot,

And what if it’s 10 yards rather than 2 millimetres. I want to putt, not chip and consider it might be on my line. I’m wrong because I’ve completely misread the putt but I ask anyway as allowed and am refused.

My point is, should the Rules not decree a deliberate and knowing refusal to adhere to a request from another player, within the Rules, to be a serious breach worthy of DQ?

As I typed that I realised the futility of my desire. We come back to flag tending

 

[Swango1980]

And what if it’s 10 yards rather than 2 millimetres. I want to putt, not chip and consider it might be on my line. I’m wrong because I’ve completely misread the putt but I ask anyway as allowed and am refused.

My point is, should the Rules not decree a deliberate and knowing refusal to adhere to a request from another player, within the Rules, to be a serious breach worthy of DQ?

As I typed that I realised the futility of my desire. We come back to flag tending

If a ball is one mm in front of another persons ball, clearly refusal to mark the ball has serious implications.

If a ball is 100 yards in front of another players ball, then the request to mark the ball might be considered absurd.

Anything in between is going to be open to judgement. Ultimately, it would be up to the Committee member to judge what implications the refusal had. And the reasoning of such a refusal. Ultimately, if the request for marking the ball was a reasonable one, and the other player refused (especially knowing that the rules meant that they could mark the ball, and they just were not mistaken), then the judgement is rarely going to work in the favour of the one who refused to mark it. But the penalty of DQ, I'm sure, will often be somewhat subjective on what one judges as a serious breach.

 

[The Squirrel]

You’re not the only one that considers DQ to be in play if this is deliberate ‘housery

For example this guide references this exact scenario…

The Rules of Golf Disqualification - West Essex Golf Club

Disqualification from a golf competition will only occur due to serious misconduct at the committee's behest. Read on to find out more.

westessexgolfclub.co.uk

 

[Troymcclure]

If a ball is one mm in front of another persons ball, clearly refusal to mark the ball has serious implications.

If a ball is 100 yards in front of another players ball, then the request to mark the ball might be considered absurd.

Anything in between is going to be open to judgement. Ultimately, it would be up to the Committee member to judge what implications the refusal had. And the reasoning of such a refusal. Ultimately, if the request for marking the ball was a reasonable one, and the other player refused (especially knowing that the rules meant that they could mark the ball, and they just were not mistaken), then the judgement is rarely going to work in the favour of the one who refused to mark it. But the penalty of DQ, I'm sure, will often be somewhat subjective on what one judges as a serious breach.

Yes that’s a great point. If I ask from 100 yards away I’m the idiot, not the refuser. And “somewhere” in-between is the grey area. I now see why Commitee might need to be involved