Radar1981
New member
Thank you for the links and comments folks.
Slope Rating
- Thread starter Radar1981
- Start date
rulefan
Tour Winner
I reckon that the CSS varies from the SSS rather less frequently than that over the normal playing season.
Why do you suggest PCC won't affect strokeplay comps? It is designed for that purpose. It uses all legitimate scores recorded on that day
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2blue
Journeyman Pro
Fully agree & thanks.
However there is still one area that I am struggling to get my head around & that is how 'parity' occurs when players from different clubs, having the same, say 11.0 Index play against each other on each other's course on the 'match' tees... eg.
My Club's tee is rated 71.0 slope 126 = 12.3 playing H/cap (Playing H/Cap = Index x (Slope of tee / 113)
Their tee is rated 73.1 slope 142 = 13.8 playing H/cap
So it would appear to me that they have gained their 11 H/cap on a more difficult course so it should be approx 2 shots 'stronger' than mine.
However when we play against each other on either course our 11 Index will provide identical Playing H/caps despite the differences just mentioned.
Is what I'm missing blindingly obvious, or have I got something wrong?
rulefan
Tour Winner
2blue
Journeyman Pro
Speechless??
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
What's the 'bogey player' - I guess at someone who plays each hole one over par?
Foxholer
Blackballed
Indeed you have! They have an Index obtained on a harder course, not a Handicap! Him (or you) shooting 87 on his course is equivalent to shooting 84 on yours (decimals ignored for simplicity).
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rulefan
Tour Winner
It is defined as
A player with a Handicap Index of approximately 20.0 for men and approximately 24.0 for women.
rulefan
Tour Winner
At the time, yes.
I was trying to explain the response to you but had to answer a phone call and accidentally deleted the text.
But the key lies in the calculation of Score Differential where the (Slope/113) is reversed to (113/Slope). Score Differential being the figure used in calculating the Index.
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2blue
Journeyman Pro
So if they have the same index as me but that is 2 shots stronger.... how can it be right that we're both playing off the same when he comes to ours..... he's going to have 2 shots advantage immediately, surely
Foxholer
Blackballed
What do you man be the bold phrase?
Assuming you actually mean the difference between Course Rating, it's no different to existing Handicap should you play (both of, say, 11 with SSSs as per Course Rating) in a comp at each other's course. Playing to handicap would be 84-86 at his and 82-84 at yours (if CSS=SSS).
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upsidedown
Tour Winner
As I understand it within the mechanism that works out your index , irrespective of the "hardness" of the course where the qualifying score was , all scores go back to a rating of 113
FRom EG If there is a high slope rating at the competition club and I play at a course with a low slope rating, could the difference be considerable. Your handicap will change depending on the slope rating of the course: but this is done against a slope rating of 113
2blue
Journeyman Pro
It seems to me that if he attains the same Index as me from a harder course I'd expect that he has an advantage as we'd both have the same Playing H/cap when at the same course, wouldn't we?
louise_a
Money List Winner
imagine you average 12 over your course rating, your clubs slope is 120, so that would give you a handicap index (against a slope of 113) of 11.3, now imagine another player who averages 12 over on a course with a slope rating of 130, he would have a handicap index of 10.4.
So when you play at his course your handicap would be 13, whereas if he played at yours his handicap would 11.
Hope that makes sense
So when you play at his course your handicap would be 13, whereas if he played at yours his handicap would 11.
Hope that makes sense
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
Basically yes, but....the harder course aspect is designed to drop out from the rating factor (for scr golfers) and to a degree the bogey index elements reflected in slope.
Practically, you can never fully remove the advantage that any player based at a harder course will have over one based on a simple course - you can only do what's being done.
However it's wrong to term this as a stronger handicap - Its more about stronger underlying capabilities. These are usually associated with long game but can also be around extreme short game elements.
rulefan
Tour Winner
This is where what I said previously comes in
But the key lies in the calculation of Score Differential where the (Slope/113) is reversed to (113/Slope). Score Differential being the figure used in calculating the Index.
Handicap Index is based on differentials as if played on an average rated course of 113 slope. Not on the differential at the course (tees) actually played.
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Foxholer
Blackballed
That's the entire point of Slope (and Handicap, though that may/may not be the case)!
Remember if his Index is same as yours (say 11) If the Slope 'assumptions' are correct - and that's been pretty much proven by statistics to be so - he'd be 'expected' to have a (Current system) handicap of 13-14 at his course - something I've found myself, as my handicap (maintained at courses where SSS has always been > Par) travels well to courses where SSS is Par minus 1.
rulefan
Tour Winner
In this respect CONGU is not the same as WHS. CONGU does not alter the handicap to suit the relative course difficulty as there is no slope.
With WHS, the player's course handicap is modified by multiplying by (Slope/113) before play.
WHS takes the differential of a round (ie basically difference between score and course rating) and normalises it back to to a course of rating 113. The differential is the Gross score multiplied by (113/Slope) after play.
2blue
Journeyman Pro
Ah.... can start to get my head around this example... thanks.
IanMcC
Well-known member
Like a lot of people, I am still slightly confused by the upcoming handicapping system. Can one of the experts on here put me straight, if I have missed something, please.
My course is Rhuddlan, in North Wales. Off of the white tees, it has a Course rating of 72.2, and a slope rating of 129.
Lets assume a man with a handicap index of 10 shoots a gross 81, with nothing above a double bogey included and no adverse conditions.
I believe the calculations have to be like this:
1. Obtain the Course Handicap. This will be handicap index x slope/113. or, 10 x 129/113 = 11.416, which will play to 11 shots.
2. Obtain the Gross Differential. This will be the adjusted gross score (gross after any Stableford or Condition adjustments) minus the Course Rating, or 81-72.2-0 = 8.8.
3. De-slope the Gross Differential. This will be the GD x 113/slope, or 8.8 x 113/129 = 7.708
So a figure of 7.708 would be stored in the players history, to be compared with the previous 19 rounds, and used for the best 8 calculation to obtain a new Handicap Index.
If this is all correct, which it probably isn't, how much of this will a M&H Secretary be expected to compute when checking cards after a comp. I am assuming practically none. The player will work out his own Course Handicap from a pre-printed sheet in the clubhouse, just like slope ratings abroad at the moment. I then assume that the software will perform tasks 2 and 3 above, as well as determining any Condition Adjustments required.
Is all of this correct?
My course is Rhuddlan, in North Wales. Off of the white tees, it has a Course rating of 72.2, and a slope rating of 129.
Lets assume a man with a handicap index of 10 shoots a gross 81, with nothing above a double bogey included and no adverse conditions.
I believe the calculations have to be like this:
1. Obtain the Course Handicap. This will be handicap index x slope/113. or, 10 x 129/113 = 11.416, which will play to 11 shots.
2. Obtain the Gross Differential. This will be the adjusted gross score (gross after any Stableford or Condition adjustments) minus the Course Rating, or 81-72.2-0 = 8.8.
3. De-slope the Gross Differential. This will be the GD x 113/slope, or 8.8 x 113/129 = 7.708
So a figure of 7.708 would be stored in the players history, to be compared with the previous 19 rounds, and used for the best 8 calculation to obtain a new Handicap Index.
If this is all correct, which it probably isn't, how much of this will a M&H Secretary be expected to compute when checking cards after a comp. I am assuming practically none. The player will work out his own Course Handicap from a pre-printed sheet in the clubhouse, just like slope ratings abroad at the moment. I then assume that the software will perform tasks 2 and 3 above, as well as determining any Condition Adjustments required.
Is all of this correct?
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