slope and how its worked out and comp to SSS

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

i get that, my point is if a scratch golfer finds a course hard and the SSS ( Yes i know par isn't a factor )is shots over par, why would a HC golfer find it easier to play to handicap.

water is of course a factor of many a parkland course but links courses have deep pot bunkers that there is no guarantee of even getting out let alone first time

Maybe because the higher handicap player doesn't have to make so many tough shots...? So for instance if greens are heavily bunkered - with pot bunkers maybe or with tricky 'throw-off' areas - the handicap golfer has the scope in his handicap to remove the risk of playing into these bunkers or being thrown off the green by laying up and then being able to play to the green nice and safely - the scratch golfer does not have the same luxury.

 

[Swango1980]

We have a couple of par 4's at our course at around 440 yards, with about a 210 yard carry off tee over water. For most golfers, they cannot get there in 4, they simply cannot clear the water. So, they play them as par 5's, and they are relatively easy par 5's. However, some players (generally better players) can clear the water and play these as par 4's. However, they still have long approach shots, and so they are very tricky par 4's where a 5 is probably a more realistic score. Theoretically, if all 18 holes were like this, you'd say the course would be difficult for a scratch golfer (18 tough par 4's) but easy for a bogey golfer (18 easy par 5's, as they are playing them and as their handicap allows for).

On the other hand, if you had 18 par 4's that were say 300-350 yards long, but you had to carry water about 180-200 yards off the tee, this course would probably be very easy for the scratch golfer (drive over water and shortish iron or chip onto green). However, for the bogey golfer, who typically struggles to clear the water, that course would be more difficult for them.

So, slope is used to try and take these factors into account. Not just rating the difficulty between 2 types of player, but the gulf in difficulty between them.

 

[patricks148]

Maybe because the higher handicap player doesn't have to make so many tough shots...? So for instance if greens are heavily bunkered - with pot bunkers maybe or with tricky 'throw-off' areas - the handicap golfer has the scope in his handicap to remove the risk of playing into these bunkers or being thrown off the green by laying up and then being able to play to the green nice and safely - the scratch golfer does not have the same luxury.

not buying that and i'm sure you are missing my point, if a couse is difficult for a sct player then its harder for everyone, links courses punish poor shots more i would say than they do parkland, pot bunkers are harder to play as well so i'm just not seeing how a Bogey player would find it easier???

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

not buying that and i'm sure you are missing my point, if a couse is difficult for a sct player then its harder for everyone, links courses punish poor shots more i would say than they do parkland, pot bunkers are harder to play as well so i'm just not seeing how a Bogey player would find it easier???

I do get your point - in general. But just on difficult well bunkered greens - surely it's going to be easier for a bogey player to avoid the trouble on and around the green - and avoid racking up multiple dropped shots - if they choose to play conservatively and/or within their ability. If they try and take on the shots that the scratch player has to take on then sure - the bogey player will find such greens really difficult to hit and hold and will really struggle with their scoring. The scratch player relatively less so in such circumstances.

 

[rulefan]

i get that, my point is if a scratch golfer finds a course hard and the SSS ( Yes i know par isn't a factor )is shots over par, why would a HC golfer find it easier to play to handicap.

I must admit I have never encountered such a course although apparently they do exist. One could devise one theoretically but who would play it?
But as I said before "It (slope) is about how much harder a handicap player would find that particular course than a scratch player".

 

[Swango1980]

not buying that and i'm sure you are missing my point, if a couse is difficult for a sct player then its harder for everyone, links courses punish poor shots more i would say than they do parkland, pot bunkers are harder to play as well so i'm just not seeing how a Bogey player would find it easier???

My post 42 hopefully explains why. Obviously taking 2 extreme examples. I'd imagine in most cases, what's hard for a scratch player will also be hard for a bogey player. Which is probably why the slope is almost the same at my course for yellows and white tees, even though the white course is a lot higher with 2 extra shots on SSS

 

[patricks148]

I must admit I have never encountered such a course although apparently they do exist. One could devise one theoretically but who would play it?
But as I said before "It (slope) is about how much harder a handicap player would find that particular course than a scratch player".

but shirley we have already est that, Cov is 300 yards shorter, par and sss are the same yet is 2 higher on slope than Nairn, which has SSS 3 over (yes i know par is ir)

how can my course be harder to play for a Sc player yet Cov is harder for a bogey.

so at Cov a sc player would find it easy, yet a bogey harder.. i get that,

but at my course a scr would find it harder than a bogey ... I'm not getting it TBH

FYI this isn't about Cov GC, but just the slope diff

 

[Wildboy370]

Found this article on the national club golfer site. This is a chart of how it works. But does anyone know when the best 8 rounds out of 20 comes in for the new WHS handicap we will get in Nov ??

 

[TheDiablo]

but shirley we have already est that, Cov is 300 yards shorter, par and sss are the same yet is 2 higher on slope than Nairn, which has SSS 3 over (yes i know par is ir)

how can my course be harder to play for a Sc player yet Cov is harder for a bogey.

so at Cov a sc player would find it easy, yet a bogey harder.. i get that,

but at my course a scr would find it harder than a bogey ... I'm not getting it TBH

FYI this isn't about Cov GC, but just the slope diff

I don't know how many times it can be explained to you that it is a measure of the relative difficulty at an individual course between a scratch and bogey player, not a way to compare difficulty between courses.

Just mark your gross score in the box and take what the computer gives you. You don't need to understand the nuances, especially as it is evidently beyond you.

 

[patricks148]

I don't know how many times it can be explained to you that it is a measure of the relative difficulty at an individual course between a scratch and bogey player, not a way to compare difficulty between courses.

Just mark your gross score in the box and take what the computer gives you. You don't need to understand the nuances, especially as it is evidently beyond you.

they hav't really people keep posting the same thing, no one can or has yet explained the point i've made... far from it

 

[upsidedown]

My understanding is the WHS goes live on Nov 2 2020 and your WHS handicap index will be calculated throughout the months preceding this date so the more rounds you submit the more accurate it will be . Also think from around August you will be able to see what it's projected to be ?

 

[rulefan]

but shirley we have already est that, Cov is 300 yards shorter, par and sss are the same yet is 2 higher on slope than Nairn, which has SSS 3 over (yes i know par is ir)

how can my course be harder to play for a Sc player yet Cov is harder for a bogey.

so at Cov a sc player would find it easy, yet a bogey harder.. i get that,

but at my course a scr would find it harder than a bogey ... I'm not getting it TBH

FYI this isn't about Cov GC, but just the slope diff

You are comparing two different courses.

You can compare the Course Ratings of two courses as the CR simply tells you how difficult the course is in absolute terms for scratch players.
You can compare the Bogey Ratings of two courses as the BR simply tells you how difficult the course is in absolute terms for bogey players.

You cannot compare the slope on one course with the slope on another. Slope is specific to a course. Slope is comparing two different players (ie S & B) on the same course. ie the difference in the scores they are expected to make.

Loosely, it is a graphical way of representing the difference between the CR and BR for that specific set of tees.
Mathematically is is (BR - CR) x 5.381 (for men and 4.24 for women).
It is described as 'slope' because it can be represented as gradient on a graph where the x axis is handicap an the y axis is the CR for a 0 handicap player and 22 for the bogey.

Just subtract the CR from the BR for each course. Which is the greater?

Coventry is 98.7 - 73.0 = 25.7 * 5.381 = 139
Nairn is BR -74 =
So Nairn is more difficult for a scratch player
But what is the BR for Nairn?

 

[huds1475]

As a bogey player, how many mulligans do I get per round under the slope system?

 

[Wildboy370]

Cheers upsidedown. Wondered when it would start counting.
So from about August and sept as weather turns and courses and playing conditions start to get worse we have a handicap made up based on this. You couldn’t make it up. Could be some odd handicaps for start of next year.

 

[rulefan]

Cheers upsidedown. Wondered when it would start counting.
So from about August and sept as weather turns and courses and playing conditions start to get worse we have a handicap made up based on this. You couldn’t make it up. Could be some odd handicaps for start of next year.

The exercise is simply to let people know what their handicap index is likely to be. It won't be used until November. But if scores get worse they are unlikely to fit into your best 8 of 20. However, whatever the result, it will be consistent with the way all your scores will be treated in future and how your handicap fits in with everyone else.

 

[patricks148]

You are comparing two different courses.

You can compare the Course Ratings of two courses as the CR simply tells you how difficult the course is in absolute terms for scratch players.
You can compare the Bogey Ratings of two courses as the BR simply tells you how difficult the course is in absolute terms for bogey players.

You cannot compare the slope on one course with the slope on another. Slope is specific to a course. Slope is comparing two different players (ie S & B) on the same course. ie the difference in the scores they are expected to make.

Loosely, it is a graphical way of representing the difference between the CR and BR for that specific set of tees.
Mathematically is is (BR - CR) x 5.381 (for men and 4.24 for women).
It is described as 'slope' because it can be represented as gradient on a graph where the x axis is handicap an the y axis is the CR for a 0 handicap player and 22 for the bogey.

Just subtract the CR from the BR for each course. Which is the greater?

Coventry is 98.7 - 73.0 = 25.7 * 5.381 = 139
Nairn is BR -74 =
So Nairn is more difficult for a scratch player
But what is the BR for Nairn?

i see thats clearer, in that you cannot comp courses, why didn't you say that in the first place

Why

only thing on the card is CR 74.1 and slope 137, only other things on the cards are par and SSS

 

[rulefan]

Phew

 

[Wildboy370]

The exercise is simply to let people know what their handicap index is likely to be. It won't be used until November. But if scores get worse they are unlikely to fit into your best 8 of 20. However, whatever the result, it will be consistent with the way all your scores will be treated in future and how your handicap fits in with everyone else.

I agree, but from our club we could be in for a huge change as we have had the course resigned in last two years and it’s now over 700yards longer. It’s rumoured we all should be about 1.5 shots added and when we then take into account the new system could be a few gasps... the 8-15 and rabbits sections could be all over place... hopefully it will settle down before the start of the 2021 season.. most people I think agree it’s a far better and fairer way of doing it,

 

[rulefan]

I agree, but from our club we could be in for a huge change as we have had the course resigned in last two years and it’s now over 700yards longer. It’s rumoured we all should be about 1.5 shots added and when we then take into account the new system could be a few gasps... the 8-15 and rabbits sections could be all over place... hopefully it will settle down before the start of the 2021 season.. most people I think agree it’s a far better and fairer way of doing it,

I assume you have had the course rerated. If not you should get a temporary rating from England Golf asap. O/w handicaps and scores will be nonsense during the rest of this year upto November and have a serious effect on the conversion. The conversion will use the rating at the time of posting

 

[Wildboy370]

I assume you have had the course rerated. If not you should get a temporary rating from England Golf asap. O/w handicaps and scores will be nonsense during the rest of this year upto November and have a serious effect on the conversion. The conversion will use the rating at the time of posting

We are waiting to find out apparently golf england have been and looked over the course and all the holes will be redone on stroke index. When and how this will roll out remains the mystery at mo.