slope and how its worked out and comp to SSS

[Fish]

My course is famous

As stated in the other thread, Patrick looked up a card which is out of date, possibly on our own website, which wouldn't surprise me, however, we were recently reassessed and when awarded our slope of 139, which is one of the highest in our area, our SSS was adjusted to 73 to match our par, this was due to many changes the course had introduced and was welcomed by the membership.

As has been mentioned above, it is a difficult course IMO, we have some very tight tree-lined fairways with very little opportunity of recovery other than chipping out sideways, as they are very dense, compared to neighbouring courses that are tree lined but you can still take a full shot from and scramble a par or bogey at worse.

The better golfers can score well as they don't miss many fairways, but higher handicap golfers will struggle if they find the tree's, rivers, ponds or bunkers.

Many courses around us have far less slope factoring, which kind of substantiates what has been said above as I play very well away from home, even on the Hotchkin, so my handicap travels well, which must mean there's a degree of greater difficulty at Coventry than at other courses I play at

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

A parkland course can punish a bad shot more than a links course.

• Parkland perils - Water, woods, bunkers, rough, I'd also guess more opportunities to go OB
• Links perils- Bunkers, rough

High handicap golfers will find the perils more than the scratch golfer, hence higher slope.

Indeed - see my convoluted example earlier of 18 holes all with long water carry off the tee. Significant hazard peril for Mr Bogey - no big deal for Mr Scratchey. And therefore likely high slope.

 

[duncan mackie]

...my handicap travels well, which must mean there's a degree of greater difficulty at Coventry than at other courses I play at

more precisely, and relevant to this post, is that there is a degree of greater difficulty at your handicap level (or associated with those whose playing charecteristics approximate to that handicap level).

basically exactly what slope indicates!

however, there's little doubt that those who play their handicap golf at longer (playing), tighter courses with well guarded challenging greens are better equipped to play any course than those playing wide open short courses with flat greens. There's only so much any rating system can do - and that's before the fact that there's more than one set of playing charecteristics that can deliver an 18 handicap in the first place!

 

[mikejohnchapman]

I see, so even though say Nairns SSS is 3 shots higher that par yet Cov appears to be 1 shot under, Cov is still seen as harderr?

Having been part of assessment teams I have always been struck by the relatively small impact that wind has in the rating. Often this is a factor of how many trees are present but I suspect many costal or high courses will have a lower slope rating than many expect.

 

[Jacko_G]

i was under the impression slope was a guide to course difficulty.

my home course is par 71 SSS 74 with a slope of 137

Fish posted his course the other day which is shorter, par 73, SSS 72 and yet the slope is 139

am i missing something ?

It's because it's a system that is utterly bonkers.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I rather like the idea of 'slope' and how it works. I can be a member of a club with a low 'slope' because it is relatively easy for the higher (bogey) handicap golfer. When I play a course with a high 'slope' I am playing a course that is relatively difficult for the bogey golfer - and so for me. The Standard Scratch for the two might be the same - but playing the two courses off the same handicap I'd be likely to score worse on the latter - and so to compensate for that, the slope indexing could well give me an additional shot or few...and so my nett score on both (on average over a few rounds on each) would be more likely to be the same or very similar.

Also does the new system not give clubs more flexibility around changes they might wish to implement to their course - with SSS not being influenced so much by course length...

We are thinking of reducing the length of one of our par 3s by maybe 30yds. It'll actually be a better and more interesting hole if we did - and would add further variety to our group of par 3s. In the past losing such yardage could impact and reduce your SSS (and that was often viewed as a negative) - but not with the new system. Indeed if the par3 becomes harder for the bogey golfer it might increase the slope a little.

 

[Swango1980]

I rather like the idea of 'slope' and how it works. I can be a member of a club with a low 'slope' because it is relatively easy for the higher (bogey) handicap golfer. When I play a course with a high 'slope' I am playing a course that is relatively difficult for the bogey golfer - and so for me. The Standard Scratch for the two might be the same - but playing the two courses off the same handicap I'd be likely to score worse on the latter - and so to compensate for that, the slope indexing could well give me an additional shot or few...and so my nett score on both (on average over a few rounds on each) would be more likely to be the same or very similar.

Also does the new system not give clubs more flexibility around changes they might wish to implement to their course - with SSS not being influenced so much by course length...

We are thinking of reducing the length of one of our par 3s by maybe 30yds. It'll actually be a better and more interesting hole if we did - and would add further variety to our group of par 3s. In the past losing such yardage could impact and reduce your SSS (and that was often viewed as a negative) - but not with the new system. Indeed if the par3 becomes harder for the bogey golfer it might increase the slope a little.

This won't actually be true. At a handicap index level of around 10, you play a course with slope 130 the course handicap is 11.5, if the slope was 140 your course handicap would be 12.4. So, not a big change really. In having a look at courses in Lincolnshire, from the easiest to hardest course, the difference in course handicap was never more than 1 for me (I play off 9). It would be a bit higher for golfers with higher handicaps of course.

However, more importantly, the handicap adjustment will not lead to the same or similar nett scores from one course to another (i.e. we are not now simply aiming for 36 points to play to handicap), because there are still differences in CR just like there is now in SSS. The easiest way to think about it is, take a 0 handicapper, who will be off 0 regardless of the course they play. The score they are aiming for is the CR not course par (and therefore not 36 points unless CR = Par).

Although, I've now read some authorities may make a further adjustment to adjust course handicap to account for the difference between par and CR.

So, what I believe will be the case is that, our nett score still needs to be comapared to CR rather than par if we are trying to figure out how well we've done against our handicap. The Slope is simply there to give higher handicappers an extra shot or 2 compared to lower handicappers, when the course is more difficult between good and less good players, whereas they'd not get this advantage on a course where the relative difficulty between these player abilities is not so great.

 

[rulefan]

I see, so even though say Nairns SSS is 3 shots higher that par yet Cov appears to be 1 shot under, Cov is still seen as harderr?

Forget par. That only tells you length not difficulty.

What is the CR/SSS and slope of Nairn ?
Coventry (white) is 73 and 139

 

[duncan mackie]

Forget par. That only tells you length not difficulty.

What is the CR/SSS and slope of Nairn ?
Coventry (white) is 73 and 139

?

I've got CR as a reasonable indicator of length (less directly linked than SSS under the old rating systems but still closely tied in), and the ultimate indicator of difficulty for a scr player.

Par is pretty arbitrary - but is no indicator of length (we have 3 rated courses, all with the same par), or difficulty for anyone.

 

[rulefan]

I meant to say par only indicates the length of a hole. I should add to your last sentence that there is plenty of evidence around the world (particularly in the US) where hole par is based on the longest tee to green hole and is taken as the same for all other holes regardless on the tee to green distance.

Edit:
I have just reminded myself that the standard distances used to determine par vary around the world depending on the handicap system in use. There is a standard recommendation in the WHS. I seem to remember CONGU changed their table a few years ago. I wonder how many clubs followed suit.
Further, although in theory there is in each, supposed to be adjustments made for easily carried doglegs or forced lay-ups, evidence suggests it's not often done.

 

[patricks148]

Forget par. That only tells you length not difficulty.

What is the CR/SSS and slope of Nairn ?
Coventry (white) is 73 and 139

par 71, SSS74 CR 74.1 slope137 6890 yards

in saying that i imagine the course might be re rated come the spring once all the changes are complete, the current is only half way though, 1st by 30 yards and 7th by 60 making it a 600 plus par 5

 

[rulefan]

par 71, SSS74 CR 74.1 slope137 6890 yards

in saying that i imagine the course might be re rated come the spring once all the changes are complete, the current is only half way though, 1st by 30 yards and 7th by 60 making it a 600 plus par 5

There's not a lot in it
Coventry
White CR 73.0 slope 139 (par 73)
Yellow C& 71.3 slope 139 (par 70)
Coventry is some 300 yards shorter than Nairn with a 598 par 5.
So Nairn is marginally the more difficult for a scratch golfer. But Coventry is slightly more difficult for a bogey player RELATIVE to a scratch golfer playing the same tees at the same time.
The 139 for Coventry tells us nothing about Nairn's difficulty RELATIVE to Coventry's difficulty for any player.

 

[patricks148]

There's not a lot in it
Coventry
White CR 73.0 slope 139 (par 73)
Yellow C& 71.3 slope 139 (par 70)
Coventry is some 300 yards shorter than Nairn with a 598 par 5.
So Nairn is marginally the more difficult for a scratch golfer. But Coventry is slightly more difficult for a bogey player RELATIVE to a scratch golfer playing the same tees at the same time.
The 139 for Coventry tells us nothing about Nairn's difficulty RELATIVE to Coventry's difficulty for any player.

it just seems a strange thing with the slope, to say a Scratch golfer would find X course hard but a Handicap player wouldn't. Surley if a S golfer would find a coursehard so would everyone else, maybe moreso??

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

it just seems a strange thing with the slope, to say a Scratch golfer would find X course hard but a Handicap player wouldn't. Surley if a S golfer would find a coursehard so would everyone else, maybe moreso??

Well - maybe so.

But let's say all the par 3s are over 200yds and into the prevailing wind, and because of that the par 3s have low stroke indexes and so most handicap golfers 'get a shot'. Yes I know that doesn't matter overall because the shots on the par 3s mean shots will not be received somewhere else (but maybe even for the handicap golfer they are easy par 4s and par 5s so not so required) - but in terms of 'hardness' - because he gets a shot on each of the tough par 3s the bogey player might well consider them 'easier' (in respect of getting a nett par) than the scratch player. Yes I know. Stretching things a bit.

 

[patricks148]

Well - maybe so.

But let's say all the par 3s are over 200yds and into the prevailing wind, and because of that the par 3s have low stroke indexes and so most handicap golfers 'get a shot'. Yes I know that doesn't matter overall because the shots on the par 3s mean shots will not be received somewhere else (but maybe even for the handicap golfer they are easy par 4s and par 5s so not so required) - but in terms of 'hardness' - because he gets a shot on each of the tough par 3s the bogey player might well consider them 'easier' (in respect of getting a nett par) than the scratch player. Yes I know. Stretching things a bit.

i don't think thats it two of Nairns par 3 are SI17 and 18

as for the par 5' not sure how they would either, the 7th is 606 yards which is played into the wind, i'd be suprised if most HC golfers could even reach in 3... FYI its SI16

 

[rulefan]

it just seems a strange thing with the slope, to say a Scratch golfer would find X course hard but a Handicap player wouldn't. Surley if a S golfer would find a coursehard so would everyone else, maybe moreso??

No one has said that.

It is about how much harder a handicap player would find that particular course than a scratch player.

Assume course A where all holes were built like a football pitch (ie no water, bunkers or other obstacles).
Every hole is a 440 yard par 4. A scratch player (S) would be expected to reach each green in 2 and then 2 putt. A bogey player (B) is expected to reach the green in 3 and because his approach shot is much shorter he will 2 putt most times with a few 3s.
So both found it 'relatively' easy. The Course Rating is 72, Bogey rating is 94. Slope is 118

Assume course B where most every hole is a 440 yard par 4. But many holes have a pond at 180 yards extending for 50 yards. A S would be expected clear it but a B an't get over so would lay up. At 340 yards there may be another pond. The B has to lay up again but S can now reach the green. B has now got a longer approach shot so takes more putts than on course A.
In this case S found it easy but B however found it very difficult. The Course Rating is 72, but to allow for the difficulty factors (ie the water) Bogey rating is 98. Slope is 140.

 

[rulefan]

Well - maybe so.

But let's say all the par 3s are over 200yds and into the prevailing wind, and because of that the par 3s have low stroke indexes and so most handicap golfers 'get a shot'. Yes I know that doesn't matter overall because the shots on the par 3s mean shots will not be received somewhere else (but maybe even for the handicap golfer they are easy par 4s and par 5s so not so required) - but in terms of 'hardness' - because he gets a shot on each of the tough par 3s the bogey player might well consider them 'easier' (in respect of getting a nett par) than the scratch player. Yes I know. Stretching things a bit.

Par is not the measure of difficulty and ratings do not consider handicap strokes (Stroke Index).
Scores (ie Gross) are measured against the Course Rating not par.

 

[patricks148]

No one has said that.

It is about how much harder a handicap player would find that particular course than a scratch player.

Assume course A where all holes were built like a football pitch (ie no water, bunkers or other obstacles).
Every hole is a 440 yard par 4. A scratch player (S) would be expected to reach each green in 2 and then 2 putt. A bogey player (B) is expected to reach the green in 3 and because his approach shot is much shorter he will 2 putt most times with a few 3s.
So both found it 'relatively' easy. The Course Rating is 72, Bogey rating is 94. Slope is 118

Assume course B where most every hole is a 440 yard par 4. But many holes have a pond at 180 yards extending for 50 yards. A S would be expected clear it but a B an't get over so would lay up. At 340 yards there may be another pond. The B has to lay up again but S can now reach the green. B has now got a longer approach shot so takes more putts than on course A.
In this case S found it easy but B however found it very difficult. The Course Rating is 72, but to allow for the difficulty factors (ie the water) Bogey rating is 98. Slope is 140.

I get the bit about a Sc player may find X easier, but if a scratch player finds a course hard why wouldn't a bogey player find it even harder, thats the bit i'm not getting??

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I get the bit about a Sc player may find X easier, but if a scratch player finds a course hard why wouldn't a bogey player find it even harder, thats the bit i'm not getting??

Guess it depends on what you mean by 'harder'

@rulefan's Course B is going to be 'harder' for many bogey players to play to their handicap (for the course) simply as a result of having to lay up short of the water all the time - with resulting risk of ending up in the water anyway...and not being able to fall back on their short game around the green to recover pars or single bogeys. Some bogey players may not be quite so affected by having to clear the water and so they won't find it that much 'harder' playing to their course handicap than the scratch player.

 

[patricks148]

Guess it depends on what you mean by 'harder'

@rulefan's Course B is going to be 'harder' for many bogey players to play to their handicap (for the course) simply as a result of having to lay up short of the water all the time - with resulting risk of ending up in the water anyway...and not being able to fall back on their short game around the green to recover pars or single bogeys. Some bogey players may not be quite so affected by having to clear the water and so they won't find it that much 'harder' playing to their course handicap than the scratch player.

i get that, my point is if a scratch golfer finds a course hard and the SSS ( Yes i know par isn't a factor )is shots over par, why would a HC golfer find it easier to play to handicap.

water is of course a factor of many a parkland course but links courses have deep pot bunkers that there is no guarantee of even getting out let alone first time