slope and how its worked out and comp to SSS

[duncan mackie]

Cheers upsidedown. Wondered when it would start counting.
So from about August and sept as weather turns and courses and playing conditions start to get worse we have a handicap made up based on this. You couldn’t make it up. Could be some odd handicaps for start of next year.

You may have misinterpreted this a little (lot).

Basically all the rounds in your handicap record could be counting - including for some people rounds from many years ago!

Specific transition arrangements will apply where less than 20 rounds are in history at the point that things switch over.

The more cards you submit through 2020 the more accurate your new handicap index should be.

Not sure where you play but August and September represent the best playing conditions on most courses I play - however the number of people who submit 20 Q scores over 2 months is also rather limited! I suspect the membership wide average for most clubs will be in the region of 4 scores a year to put this whole exercise into perspective!?

 

[rulefan]

We are waiting to find out apparently golf england have been and looked over the course and all the holes will be redone on stroke index. When and how this will roll out remains the mystery at mo.

Well they can't rate in 'off season' but if they haven't already will probably issue a temp rating.

 

[rulefan]

You may have misinterpreted this a little (lot).

Basically all the rounds in your handicap record could be counting - including for some people rounds from many years ago!

Specific transition arrangements will apply where less than 20 rounds are in history at the point that things switch over.

The more cards you submit through 2020 the more accurate your new handicap index should be.

Not sure where you play but August and September represent the best playing conditions on most courses I play - however the number of people who submit 20 Q scores over 2 months is also rather limited! I suspect the membership wide average for most clubs will be in the region of 4 scores a year to put this whole exercise into perspective!?

If the player's current CONGU handicap is reasonably correct, regardless of his playing rate, IMO the conversion to WHS will make no more relative difference than it will to everyone else.
However, if I understand the process correctly, if a player has played less than 20 Q rounds in the last two years the 'start point' will be two years ago as if no rounds have been played prior to that. So the build up of a handicap truly represents recenty play. Not based on what his handicap was 2+ years ago

 

[Foxholer]

but shirley we have already est that, Cov is 300 yards shorter, par and sss are the same yet is 2 higher on slope than Nairn, which has SSS 3 over (yes i know par is ir)

how can my course be harder to play for a Sc player yet Cov is harder for a bogey.

so at Cov a sc player would find it easy, yet a bogey harder.. i get that,

but at my course a scr would find it harder than a bogey ... I'm not getting it TBH

FYI this isn't about Cov GC, but just the slope diff

Ever heard the saying 'handicaps at our course travel well' - or similar? That was certainly the case at one course I've belonged to and, I believe, at current one.

Slope is a similar comparison!

My view of what your comparison of Nairn and Cov SSSs and Slopes indicates is that while Nairn is a much harder course for Scratch golfers to score play to Par, it's (marginally) less difficult for 'Bogey' colfers to play to their handicap. Why, (if you want to 'willie-wave' aout slope value) is not obvious, but I suspect it's probably mainly due to positions of hazards - that are in-play for Scratch folk but not in play/avoidable for Bogey rated folk.

 

[duncan mackie]

If the player's current CONGU handicap is reasonably correct, regardless of his playing rate, IMO the conversion to WHS will make no more relative difference than it will to everyone else.
However, if I understand the process correctly, if a player has played less than 20 Q rounds in the last two years the 'start point' will be two years ago as if no rounds have been played prior to that. So the build up of a handicap truly represents recenty play. Not based on what his handicap was 2+ years ago

Thanks for that clarification - I hadn't seen it anywhere.

I can see strong arguments either way - however one thing is certainly going to be interesting in that a huge proportion membership is going to getting 'new handicaps (which most almost certainly deserved). Basically a huge reset. As the small number of rounds basis of allocation is based on the assumption that players are new, and will improve quickly, they will also be flawed and take a long time to correct.

None of that is particularily a cause for concern - it's more likely to create arguments about the validity of the underlying system, which is.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

As part of our bunker renewal programme (every bunker on the course being rebuilt) we are currently also re-modelling or re-positioning some of our fairway bunkers - and building some new fairway bunkers.

The objective of the bunker remodelling/repositioning and new bunker work is to increase the challenge presented to the scratch player - whilst making it more interesting for the bogey player and generally make it more more visually attractive. The changes should have little impact on the bogey golfer's scoring unless he acts the silly booger... Par will remain the same but I'm thinking the changes will increase the Slope by making the course a little harder for the scratch player but not so for the bogey player.

 

[Foxholer]

...The changes should have little impact on the bogey golfer's scoring unless he acts the silly booger... Par will remain the same but I'm thinking the changes will increase the Slope by making the course a little harder for the scratch player but not so for the bogey player.

So Slope shouldn't increase - though Course Rating might/should. In fact, Slope might/should decrease - so that, for the Bogey play, new Course Rating + Slope adjustment matches current value.

Comprendez?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

So Slope shouldn't increase - though Course Rating might/should. In fact, Slope might/should decrease - so that, for the Bogey play, new Course Rating + Slope adjustment matches current value.

Comprendez?

Eh? I'm confused if I've got this the wrong way round. If the Slope is a function of the difference in difficulty for a Scratch and for a Bogey Player - then making the course harder for the scratch player is going to reduce the difference between the scores of a scratch and a bogey player - but would that not reduce the Slope? And actually thinking again about it maybe I get that - scratch and bogey scores closer - so less differential and so less slope...

That would be why it is invalid to judge course 'difficulty' based on Slope - and so incorrect to compare course Slopes and draw a general comparison of course difficulty from that.

And so now - as I understand it - any increased difficulty for the Scratch player resulting from consideration of the bunker changes we are doing, will be reflected in an increase in the (Scratch) Course Rating - and this is a more precise (as in it is calculated and given to one decimal place) version of the course SSS.

 

[Foxholer]

Eh? I'm confused if I've got this the wrong way round. If the Slope is a function of the difference in difficulty for a Scratch and for a Bogey Player - then making the course harder for the scratch player is going to reduce the difference between the scores of a scratch and a bogey player - but would that not reduce the Slope? And actually thinking again about it maybe I get that - scratch and bogey scores closer - so less differential and so less slope...

That would be why it is invalid to judge course 'difficulty' based on Slope - and so incorrect to compare course Slopes and draw a general comparison of course difficulty from that.

And so now - as I understand it - any increased difficulty for the Scratch player resulting from consideration of the bunker changes we are doing, will be reflected in an increase in the (Scratch) Course Rating - and this is a more precise (as in it is calculated and given to one decimal place) version of the course SSS.

Correct - at least from the last sentence of paragraph 1!

And that's also where the OP has 'got it wrong' too. Changes/existing 'hazards and attributes' that are relevant to Scratch players may not be (very) relevant to Bogey players - and vice versa. and it's (mainly) other 'hazards and attributes' that make up Slope.

 

[YandaB]

Well they can't rate in 'off season' but if they haven't already will probably issue a temp rating.

That statement intrigued me, can I ask why? I thought that it was things like distances of holes and positions of bunkers, penalty areas etc. that was being looked at. What changes between the seasons that mean ratings must be done "in season"?

 

[Imurg]

Well they can't rate in 'off season' but if they haven't already will probably issue a temp rating.

What's the deadline for rating courses..?
Whipsnade hasn't been done yet, apart from the Reds, or if it has the numbers dont appear on the database yet...
Asked the Pro the other day and he didn't know if it had been done or not.

 

[rulefan]

What's the deadline for rating courses..?
Whipsnade hasn't been done yet, apart from the Reds, or if it has the numbers dont appear on the database yet...
Asked the Pro the other day and he didn't know if it had been done or not.

Obviously end October is the target but if courses are not done in time they will be given a temporary rating. This is a standard procedure if a course has been altered and a rating team is not immediately available. It is a pretty straightforward essentially paper procedure that may well involve a less detailed examination of the course. Not always done if the county is very familiar with the course already.
I think the pro would have been aware as the rating team would cause a good few tee times to be blocked out and notices are often put on the tees to warn players.
The reds may well have been done many years ago as ladies tees have been rated to the USGA spec for the last 10 years or so.

 

[rulefan]

That statement intrigued me, can I ask why? I thought that it was things like distances of holes and positions of bunkers, penalty areas etc. that was being looked at. What changes between the seasons that mean ratings must be done "in season"?

Sorry, I missed your question.
Changes between peak playing season (summe rish) and off season (autumn ish thru spring ish).
Run on fairway, greenspeed, length and texture of rough, density of leaf cover on trees and shrubs