Simple Question Regarding Cancelled Golf Break

[3offTheTee]

What does that mean in layman's terms?

S
It means if the Company goes into liquidation The Bank has first call on say any Freehold property(fixed charge) and any stock, debtors plant and machinery (floating items) these obviously change up to the amount of any debt to Barclays Bank

 

[Kennysarmy]

S
It means if the Company goes into liquidation The Bank has first call on say any Freehold property(fixed charge) and any stock, debtors plant and machinery (floating items) these obviously change up to the amount of any debt to Barclays Bank

Are you saying if we take them to the small claims court, as my group has voted to do, and others do the same, and it forces them in to liquidation, then we'll be at the back of the queue for reclaiming any costs and it might have been all in vain and we'd be even more out of pocket having paid for the small courts claim?

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I know, I missed the roll eyes smiley off my post ?

Ha ha, that makes the difference

My BiL told me a story a while ago on the issue of bluff, one of his earliest jobs in insolvency. He was sent to a company that had gone down. He went to see the MD at his home as the staff mentioned his list of cars. He turned up at the house, think footballers house, long drive, lions on the gate, fountain etc. He sees a Lambo, Aston Martin, Range Rover. Happy days, lots of money to recover there. Every car was leased, £7k per month in total , the house was rented, fully furnished. The bloke acted like a millionaire but didn't have a penny to his name, was not going to have a roof over his head or a car to drive within the week. All were being reclaimed by the various finance companies.

That is his most extreme example but he has a host of similar stories. There is an awful lot of supposedly flash MD's out there who are up to their eyes in debt, finance etc. Smoke and mirrors.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Are you saying if we take them to the small claims court, as my group has voted to do, and others do the same, and it forces them in to liquidation, then we'll be at the back of the queue for reclaiming any costs and it might have been all in vain and we'd be even more out of pocket having paid for the small courts claim?

Pretty much. HMRC always come first, Barclays will come second. The insolvency company will then take their obscene charges. You would be fighting with everyone else they owe money to, if there is anything left after that. Liquidation would not help you in this, there is rarely any money left for debtors in that situation, pennies in the pound at best.

 

[Kennysarmy]

Pretty much. HMRC always come first, Barclays will come second. The insolvency company will then take their obscene charges. You would be fighting with everyone else they owe money to, if there is anything left after that. Liquidation would not help you in this, there is rarely any money left for debtors in that situation, pennies in the pound at best.

But we could then claim for our money back under the ATOL scheme?

 

[robbeh32]

I just paid the rest of my holiday. I Paid on my credit card I also have travel insurance with barclays. They told me to pay and go and if its cancelled I would get my money back. If I chose not to go then I wouldn't.

 

[3offTheTee]

Pretty much. HMRC always come first, Barclays will come second. The insolvency company will then take their obscene charges. You would be fighting with everyone else they owe money to, if there is anything left after that. Liquidation would not help you in this, there is rarely any money left for debtors in that situation, pennies in the pound at best.

In the words of the song by Meatloaf”You took the words right out of my mouth”

 

[Lord Tyrion]

But we could then claim for our money back under the ATOL scheme?

I don't see that it would impact. You would not go on a naughty list because you tried to reclaim your money. They are totally separate actions, grudges are not held.

All that would be lost would be the money to bring the case in the first place.

Let's hope that none of it is necessary or if it is then they can pay and stay afloat

 

[Dibby]

Reading through this rollercoaster. I actually sympathise with both sides. It's like a classic game theory prisoners dilemma. The best outcome for everyone is for all parties to cooperate, but the rational decision for each party is to act in their self-interest and not cooperate, therefore the actual outcome is non-cooperation and both sides lose.

I have sympathy with the customers that have lost their money, but equally, I have sympathy for the businesses and employees who will lose their livelihoods.

Without any research at all, it is obvious ATOL\ABTA are not bonded with the full amount of all holidays booked at any given time. They are designed to cover relatively small scale failures, not whole market failures. The optimal outcome for everyone is for the companies involved to keep operating and the customers to get alternative holidays, otherwise it becomes a zero-sum game and for every customer who gets a refund, x customers will get shafted, along with the company and its employees.

Understandable why everyone involved is frustrated, but from a distanced view, there is no easy solution.

 

[GB72]

Reading through this rollercoaster. I actually sympathise with both sides. It's like a classic game theory prisoners dilemma. The best outcome for everyone is for all parties to cooperate, but the rational decision for each party is to act in their self-interest and not cooperate, therefore the actual outcome is non-cooperation and both sides lose.

I have sympathy with the customers that have lost their money, but equally, I have sympathy for the businesses and employees who will lose their livelihoods.

Without any research at all, it is obvious ATOL\ABTA are not bonded with the full amount of all holidays booked at any given time. They are designed to cover relatively small scale failures, not whole market failures. The optimal outcome for everyone is for the companies involved to keep operating and the customers to get alternative holidays, otherwise it becomes a zero-sum game and for every customer who gets a refund, x customers will get shafted, along with the company and its employees.

Understandable why everyone involved is frustrated, but from a distanced view, there is no easy solution.

It is a good point well made. If this is happening across the travel industry you would have to ask whether ATOL is sufficiently funded to cover all of the refunds and the proposed move to vouchers seems to suggest that this may well be the case. Unfortunately, I feel that a lot of people are going to lose out totally on holidays, flights etc. Personal opinion, time it would take to put a claim through the courts at the moment, you are talking several months and this will have played out by then. Even with a judgement, you are no higher up the pecking order of debtors but you will have incurred further costs. And if there are a number of court cases raised or one large one, the company goes into voluntary liuquidation. No real answer to this but riding it out would appear to be the best option if only to minimise losses.

 

[Deleted member 1740]

S
It means if the Company goes into liquidation The Bank has first call on say any Freehold property(fixed charge) and any stock, debtors plant and machinery (floating items) these obviously change up to the amount of any debt to Barclays Bank

What would make them do that? Could it be a guarantee for a loan or finance of sort?

 

[GB72]

What would make them do that? Could it be a guarantee for a loan or finance of sort?

Yes, a debenture is sort of like a corporate mortgage but because assets change all the time, it is over whatever the company owns at any given time.

 

[Green Bay Hacker]

We were due to go on a 2 day YGT trip next weekend (about 40). The organiser has accepted a provisional date in August (bit optimistic) for us to go but at an additional cost of £10 due to it being at peak times (not a problem). As things are going though we will be lucky to have any firms left that will be around to offer these trips in a few months.

 

[rosecott]

12 of us are booked for a week in Belek, flying out on 23rd April. Clearly, this is not going to happen and I'm now pretty well resigned in my own mind to the loss of the holiday and the grand or so we have all paid. I really cannot see any other outcome than YGT going bust. In the light of what is happening to huge numbers of people up and down the country, I will bite the bullet. I will tell myself that money has gone and, in that last week of April, I will console myself with the thought that I will probably be in a better place than the huge numbers I already mentioned.

 

[Deleted member 1740]

We were due to go on a 2 day YGT trip next weekend (about 40). The organiser has accepted a provisional date in August (bit optimistic) for us to go but at an additional cost of £10 due to it being at peak times (not a problem). As things are going though we will be lucky to have any firms left that will be around to offer these trips in a few months.

In fairness if you can rearrange and it suits you and your party then that’s great but you shouldn’t be paying a penny more peak or not.

it seems that YGT are an absolute cut throat business who put making money above anything else at all.

 

[robbeh32]

12 of us are booked for a week in Belek, flying out on 23rd April. Clearly, this is not going to happen and I'm now pretty well resigned in my own mind to the loss of the holiday and the grand or so we have all paid. I really cannot see any other outcome than YGT going bust. In the light of what is happening to huge numbers of people up and down the country, I will bite the bullet. I will tell myself that money has gone and, in that last week of April, I will console myself with the thought that I will probably be in a better place than the huge numbers I already mentioned.

No Travel insurance or anything?

 

[CliveW]

OK so an update on Jet2. We spoke to them last week regarding our flights to Turkey on 14 April and were advised that we would be due a refund. I checked my bank balance today and the total amount has been paid. Well done Jet2.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

In fairness if you can rearrange and it suits you and your party then that’s great but you shouldn’t be paying a penny more peak or not.

it seems that YGT are an absolute cut throat business who put making money above anything else at all.

I know I am constantly sounding like an apologist for YGT here but it may be the golf course that are adding that. April tends to be the last bargain month and then summer fees kick in (hence why my trips are always in April ). The difference can be pretty hefty, particularly at flash clubs.

In the case given, I obviously don't know the courses involved, an extra £10 to go in August seems pretty decent.

 

[Kennysarmy]

12 of us are booked for a week in Belek, flying out on 23rd April. Clearly, this is not going to happen and I'm now pretty well resigned in my own mind to the loss of the holiday and the grand or so we have all paid. I really cannot see any other outcome than YGT going bust. In the light of what is happening to huge numbers of people up and down the country, I will bite the bullet. I will tell myself that money has gone and, in that last week of April, I will console myself with the thought that I will probably be in a better place than the huge numbers I already mentioned.

***** Part of this reply or comment has had to be deleted *****

 

[Kennysarmy]

No Travel insurance or anything?

Travel insurance is mainly for health issues etc, they have no interest in customers who can't get refunds.
If YGT go bust that's a different situation.