Should we get rid of the need for handiccp certificates for visitors to play?

[fundy]

I think a lot of courses use them as a sort of get out clause. If they have the rule in place it makes it a lot easier for them to not allow someone to play if they are deemed undesirable. Not needed for 95%+ of visitors but makes their job easier for that small minority.

Personally have no issue with a course asking for them, its up to them if they want to restrict the visitors they get but as has been said, some do it at the detriment to their business

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Played Dundonald, Turnberry, St Kittocks, Stranraer, Brunston Castle and The Dukes in the last two years without a certificate.
As an earlier post suggests it is generally the poor quality and brand new clubs that insist.

Moral of the story is that unless they are an Open rota club and they ask for a handicap cert, they are not worth playing!!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Don't know if h'cap cert required at my club (don't think it is). However I've taken visitors on who don't have handicaps and who I really wouldn't like to be behind if they were were playing by themselves. But I tell my visitors that I may ask them to pick up if they've taken too many shots and/or we're holding up play behind. They always understand why that is the right thing to do.

So if ALL visitors were reminded before playing that this would be what is expected of them - in the context of slow play - then I wouldn't mind my club letting visitors on without certificates. But I think that all visitors should be given something to read before their green fee is accepted that states clearly what is expected of any visitor - with or without h'cap certificate - in repect of slow play and general etiquette. It should also make clear that the course is marshalled and serious breach of etiquette etc may result in a player being asked to terminate their round.

 

[User20205]

Moral of the story is that unless they are an Open rota club and they ask for a handicap cert, they are not worth playing!!

I agree in the main. asking for handicap certs is a little out of touch with modern golf. You don't have to be a club member to be a decent golfer and the reverse is also true.

The only place in the UK I have been asked is St Enodoc. it's not on the open rota but it's well worth playing, to dismiss it because they ask for proof of handicap would be a mistake

 

[woody69]

And what happens when your course does not have a 'Marshal'?

If a club wants to ensure a certain standard of player is on their course they have to be prepared to police it. I was suggesting better use of course marshals over a handicap certificate as that proves nothing other than it can be faked as per a few previous posts in this thread saying so.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

And what happens when your course does not have a 'Marshal'?

We don't have a formal marshal for general daily play - though if a society is playing or if members complain to the office over a group - then our secretary jumps onto a buggy and off he goes to do a bit of marshalling.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

If a club wants to ensure a certain standard of player is on their course they have to be prepared to police it. I was suggesting better use of course marshals over a handicap certificate as that proves nothing other than it can be faked as per a few previous posts in this thread saying so.

The faked cert is a bit of a red herring. I think most faked h'cap certs will be presented by players who use one to get on, but who know that they are very unlikely to get pulled for their play or etiquette. If my club required a h'cap cert I wouldn't care if a player faked one to get on and got round just fine and caused no problems. If there were problems and they were such that my club felt inclined to report the player to his club - then discovered it was fake - then woe betide the member of that club who helped do the forgery.

 

[Robobum]

It doesn't cover the non club member issue, but I thought that one of the purposes of CDH was to do away with the need for certificates?

 

[duncan mackie]

Why shouldn't they be on the course? They've paid their money they deserve the chance to play. It should be down to the course marshals to manage them better and if one group is particularly slow to ask them to either speed up or let other groups through.

answering your question first, taking 8 shots to get out of a bunker can be considered unfortunate and something that happens to us all in a while, but not every time (as an example) and most of the people I am visulising took exactly the stance you have ie I've paid my money and I will play every shot at a pace I wish and will putt out every hole.
the courses all had marshalls, and it was the marshalls that requested the handicap certificates because it was proving difficult to request people leave the course before completing the first hole!
you cannot manage such groups through solid fields of 4 balls
my point was that all the other people who have paid their (£80 a round members guest rate in one case) also have rights!

I have just checked and the particular course that had the most problems now insists on every visiting player (ex members guests) having a caddy as well as the 18 handicap limit that's still in place. The good news is that the caddy fee is included in the green fee (summer £360 )

 

[Hacker Khan]

The only place in the UK I have been asked is St Enodoc. it's not on the open rota but it's well worth playing, to dismiss it because they ask for proof of handicap would be a mistake

Funny you should mention that as I was on holiday down that way a couple of months ago and was looking at playing the Church course or the Championship course at Trevose. But both stated on their web site that they need handicap certificates (which needed to be below 24 at St Endoc) which I did not have.

I was more than willing to pay their day rate (which I think was nearly £100 at St Endoc) but in the end I took my business elsewhere where I did not need to produce a certificate. I did find the web site for St Endoc a little patronising as I felt it went out of its way to essentially say that I was not good enough to play the course.

 

[Bratty]

Westerham did a groupon deal last year and we had loads of people on the course from 1pm Saturday and Sunday until end March.

My issue was when one bloke asked our Director of Golf, "Where's the first pitch, mate?". The DoG then says, "Sorry, sir. First pitch? Do you mean the shortgame area?". "No", says the chap, "where do I start to play?". "Oh, you mean the first tee." says the DoG. "Yeah, that's it. Didn't know what it was called. I've never played golf before."!!!!!!

Now, Westerham is not an easy course, and not one I'd recommend to someone who's never played golf before. However, the groupon voucher made it cheaper than any of the pay and plays in a 20 mile radius, so we had loads of people out who had no idea what they were doing, no idea of etiquette, club-sharing, driving buggies on the fairways, etc. The course took a while to recover.

Plus because the weather was wonderful in March, lots of the members were impacted as they went out in the afternoon and were stuck behind the above.

A handicap limit of 24 would have prevented the worst of this, although I agree that better marshalling would also have helped. That said, one group even threatened our marshall when he asked them to hurry up and not drive their buggy over the teeboxes!

So, I support handicap certficates to be honest.

 

[Hacker Khan]

Westerham did a groupon deal last year and we had loads of people on the course from 1pm Saturday and Sunday until end March.

My issue was when one bloke asked our Director of Golf, "Where's the first pitch, mate?". The DoG then says, "Sorry, sir. First pitch? Do you mean the shortgame area?". "No", says the chap, "where do I start to play?". "Oh, you mean the first tee." says the DoG. "Yeah, that's it. Didn't know what it was called. I've never played golf before."!!!!!!

Now, Westerham is not an easy course, and not one I'd recommend to someone who's never played golf before. However, the groupon voucher made it cheaper than any of the pay and plays in a 20 mile radius, so we had loads of people out who had no idea what they were doing, no idea of etiquette, club-sharing, driving buggies on the fairways, etc. The course took a while to recover.

Plus because the weather was wonderful in March, lots of the members were impacted as they went out in the afternoon and were stuck behind the above.

A handicap limit of 24 would have prevented the worst of this, although I agree that better marshalling would also have helped. That said, one group even threatened our marshall when he asked them to hurry up and not drive their buggy over the teeboxes!

So, I support handicap certficates to be honest.

But surely you can't go chasing the Groupon dollar but then insist on handicap certificates.

Most of the courses around me don't do groupon for rounds of golf on their own, but usually tie it in with cheap group lessons. And then the groupon offer is mostly for a round on the second course which is usually a par 3 course. Don't think I've ever seen a Groupon offer for a round on a decent course, especially at the weekend. So not surprised your course got flooded with people taking it up.

 

[cookelad]

It's a tough call how do you differentiate between someone who's picking up a set of clubs for the 1st time with the intention of learning and becoming a twice(+) a week golfer and someone who won't pick up the borrowed clubs until he gets invited on the next corporate outing?

 

[fundy]

But surely you can't go chasing the Groupon dollar but then insist on handicap certificates.

Most of the courses around me don't do groupon for rounds of golf on their own, but usually tie it in with cheap group lessons. And then the groupon offer is mostly for a round on the second course which is usually a par 3 course. Don't think I've ever seen a Groupon offer for a round on a decent course, especially at the weekend. So not surprised your course got flooded with people taking it up.

Plenty of decent courses have appeared on Groupon, I know of one top100 course whose offer got knocked over completely when it appeared on groupon, and included weekend availability, some of the members werent too impressed to say the least

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Westerham did a groupon deal last year and we had loads of people on the course from 1pm Saturday and Sunday until end March.

My issue was when one bloke asked our Director of Golf, "Where's the first pitch, mate?". The DoG then says, "Sorry, sir. First pitch? Do you mean the shortgame area?". "No", says the chap, "where do I start to play?". "Oh, you mean the first tee." says the DoG. "Yeah, that's it. Didn't know what it was called. I've never played golf before."!!!!!!

Now, Westerham is not an easy course, and not one I'd recommend to someone who's never played golf before. However, the groupon voucher made it cheaper than any of the pay and plays in a 20 mile radius, so we had loads of people out who had no idea what they were doing, no idea of etiquette, club-sharing, driving buggies on the fairways, etc. The course took a while to recover.

Plus because the weather was wonderful in March, lots of the members were impacted as they went out in the afternoon and were stuck behind the above.

A handicap limit of 24 would have prevented the worst of this, although I agree that better marshalling would also have helped. That said, one group even threatened our marshall when he asked them to hurry up and not drive their buggy over the teeboxes!

So, I support handicap certficates to be honest.

IMO - a committee at a members club shouldn't be allowed to go down such as the Groupon route without first consulting the membership. Somewhat different if marketing is directed at individuals who have already expressed an interest in, or have played, golf - but Groupon is just mass marketing and will elicit interest from some with absolutely no idea or real interest in the game, but will do it to have a go for a laugh.

 

[Hacker Khan]

Plenty of decent courses have appeared on Groupon, I know of one top100 course whose offer got knocked over completely when it appeared on groupon, and included weekend availability, some of the members werent too impressed to say the least

I must be living in the wrong part of the country then. I was talking to someone I know who runs a top end hair salon, and he was looking at groupon. But he said that they take a huge slice of the money so he told them to get stuffed. Really surprised a top 100 course would use them. But I suppose it was happy days for anyone lucky enough to play the course at reduced rates.

 

[duncan mackie]

IMO - a committee at a members club shouldn't be allowed to go down such as the Groupon route without first consulting the membership.

it probably won't surprise you to hear it's not a members club then

 

[6inchcup]

I am probably in a minority as all my golfing years I have been a member of a golf club,2 including my current one have been members clubs and both have had strict criteria about visitors and societies playing the course,this is the reason I joined them as I do not wish to be stuck behind a group who haven't got a clue about how to conduct themselves on or off the course,the reason I left my last club was the owner started chasing the money and when I left you could have 5 or6 societies on the course most week ends,some who had never held a club until they turned up that day,I am going to make a statement that some will find elitist,but isn't meant to be,why can't those that have never played or only just started or those that have never bothered to join a club and get a h/c cert play their golf on municipal courses and learn the game and its rules,why should just being able to afford to play my or any other private members club be the only criteria needed.

 

[User20205]

I do not wish to be stuck behind a group who haven't got a clue about how to conduct themselves on or off the course

not having a handicap cert doesn't mean the above. I didn't have one until a year ago, I also play in a society where 90% don't have any proof of playing ability. Its old fashioned to insist on them, especially now when loads of golfers aren't club members.

If you enforce visitors producing handicap certificates you are goiing to scare off visitors & potential members. Effective marshalling at peak times is the way forward.

I also would be reluctant that had societies at weekends irrespective of their ability, there'e no point being a member if you can't get on

 

[Shiny]

The thing that gets me is when a club says you must be under a 24 handicap etc to play. I would say that as a 26 handicap does that mean I am not good enough to play there. I drive the ball 240 yards, know all the rules and am quite anal about etiquette. I am not a slow player (two and a half hours on my own for 18 holes) nor do I take 120 shots so why am I penalised.