Should 3/4 difference exist?

the smiling assassin

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Happened across this pdf yesterday while looking up something unrelated - it's got some interesting stuff in it - including the stats, reasoning behind full difference as opposed to 3/4

http://www.scottishgolf.org/files/Myths___Misconceptions_Report_1_June_2005.pdf

interesting stuff. it'd be more interesting still if they did a study on how matches were won relative to how players played relative to their handicap on the day though. these stats stink a little as all they do is demonstrate how the current system is biased in favour of assisting the high handicapper to offset the reality that a low handicapper will play to their handicap more often than a higher handicap. the problem is the system in the first place is designed for medal play and not matchplay which has different subtleties.

the issue with full allowance in singles matchplay isn't really when small handicap differences are in play, it's when there is a large difference. for me the issue is that the handicap system is based on stableford scoring. in match play a nett double bogey is completely and utterly irrelevant as nett birdies, pars and bogeys are the currency to which holes are decided. matchplay handicaps for me should be based on medal play adjusting anything worse than a bogey to a bogey, rather than worse than a double down to a double. that way, full allowance would be fair(er).

this system would take into account that there are lower handicappers who ought to be lower, as well as higher handicappers that should be lower in a matchplay situation. the current system does not cater for matchplay as it is designed for strokeplay. max matchplay handicap would be 18 rather than 28, but the vast majority of players would have a matchplay handicap of at least 1 or 2 strokes better than their medal play handicap.
 

Fish

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I hear what your saying but surley the cat 1 golfer should be annoyed getting beat from someone playing off 18 or higher, I mean he has put the effort in to get where he has got to which is more than can be said for the guy playing of 18+

I think that's a terrible comment.

If the Cat1 didn't play to his handicap and the higher handicap played to his, why shouldn't he win?

Also, your generalisation of the effort put is in awful, I've only been playing 2.5yrs and played in some comps in year 1, should I not be able to compete against a Cat1 because they've been playing for years and have "put the effort in"!

Everyone knows the rules when they enter and they know that everyone can have his/her day, even the Cat1's, so stop expecting everything to fall your way or just play in scratch comps that way the blood pressure will be more controllable.
 

Liverbirdie

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Looking at the typical handicaps of the people who have won properly run matchplay events that I have seen id say full difference is fine.

The trouble with some lower handicap golfers that I have seen is they think they should beat everyone with a high handicap all the time. The handicap system is to make it a level(ish) playing field so you are going to lose to worse players some times. They always seem to remember that one guy off 20 or whatever who beat them :D
I think they tend to remember getting beat by a 24 handicapper who gets 12 pars on the way to a win. On a good day a high h/capper has to probably play 10% better than normal to win, a cat 1 would have to play abut 20% better to match him. A Cat 1 giving 2 shots on any hole, to a long playing club member can be harsh. I've played from 28 right down to 6, and I think 3/4, but more so 7/8 is fair on singles and 3/4 is definitely fair on pairs matchplay and betterball pairs comps.
 
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patricks148

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yes, i'll have 3/4;)

There's nothing like arriving on the first tee to be told your oppo is off 28 and then watch them hit their drive 40 yards past yours and getting told on every tee...... " i get a shot here":rofl::whoo:
 

Pistol Peter

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I think that's a terrible comment.

If the Cat1 didn't play to his handicap and the higher handicap played to his, why shouldn't he win?

Also, your generalisation of the effort put is in awful, I've only been playing 2.5yrs and played in some comps in year 1, should I not be able to compete against a Cat1 because they've been playing for years and have "put the effort in"!

Everyone knows the rules when they enter and they know that everyone can have his/her day, even the Cat1's, so stop expecting everything to fall your way or just play in scratch comps that way the blood pressure will be more controllable.

Sorry if I have upset you but I was not having a go at you just the system, I cant play in scratch comps because they are normally limited to 5 or sometime 7 at a push so my handicap is to high. Am I to take it that you are off a high handicap a bit higher than 18 is so I am very sorry but I do feel the current limit is to high and needs reviewed.
 

Liverbirdie

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Sorry if I have upset you but I was not having a go at you just the system, I cant play in scratch comps because they are normally limited to 5 or sometime 7 at a push so my handicap is to high. Am I to take it that you are off a high handicap a bit higher than 18 is so I am very sorry but I do feel the current limit is to high and needs reviewed.
Not got off to a easy start on the forum have you Pete. Maybe pick a less thorny subject, like what colour gloves do you like. Don't slag green off though!
 

Badger

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been reading this thread with interest as played my first 4bbb comp last weekend. played against two 4 handicappers, me off 18 and my partner off 15 so i got 11 shots and partner got 8. we ended up edging a close game 2&1 by winning 16 & 17. they were +3 through 17 with us +7.

not having played format before wasn't sure whether those figures meant they played poorly or we played well ?
 

woody69

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Looking at the typical handicaps of the people who have won properly run matchplay events that I have seen id say full difference is fine.

The trouble with some lower handicap golfers that I have seen is they think they should beat everyone with a high handicap all the time. The handicap system is to make it a level(ish) playing field so you are going to lose to worse players some times. They always seem to remember that one guy off 20 or whatever who beat them :D

I think that is the crux of the matter. The lower handicap player is obviously much better and therefore feels very hard done by when they lose. As someone else has suggested though, those players should just stick to scratch events
 

Foxholer

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Full is fine by me - and (more than) appropriate imo.

The Scottish analysis shows low cappers still have an advantage at Full, but that's probably more down to attitude/approach to a match imo.

I have no problem playing a genuine high capper. Did fear a couple of guys who were both off 22 (now both off 18), but that was more a case of finding out which of the 2 styles of play was going to be evident on any day - the 48+ handicap or the 48+ points!

And it's pretty normal for the highest capper to be the longest hitter. The lowest capper (and multiple Club Champion) at 1 old club was pretty short off the tee, but virtually in yesterdays divot - and a great iron and wedge player!
 

GB72

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I think that's a terrible comment.

If the Cat1 didn't play to his handicap and the higher handicap played to his, why shouldn't he win?

Also, your generalisation of the effort put is in awful, I've only been playing 2.5yrs and played in some comps in year 1, should I not be able to compete against a Cat1 because they've been playing for years and have "put the effort in"!

Everyone knows the rules when they enter and they know that everyone can have his/her day, even the Cat1's, so stop expecting everything to fall your way or just play in scratch comps that way the blood pressure will be more controllable.

There is also the amount of 'effort' that is put in. A higher handicapper may be putting in all the hours at the range, having lessons etc but it may simply be that 18 is as good as they are going to get. I spent 3 years on an 18 handicap but put in plenty of effort to try and get lower.

Believe it or not it is as intimidating for a higher handicapper to know that they are going to have to get a net bogey on a large number of holes just to get a half as it is for a low handicapper to know that they need to play well to combat the number of shots being given.

Chatting with people at various stages of the club knockout competition it is ironic that low handicappers seem to be worried about being drawn against high handicappers in case they have one of those good days whereas high handicappers worry about being drawn against low handicappers because of they know that they will be facing someone who is regularly paring holes and sticking in a few birdies as well.

I think it is swings and roundabouts. A high handicapper having one of those days is hard to beat but the consistency of a low handicapper is also hard to beat when you are throwing away holes due to a lack of consistency in your game. Nobody has a right to win irrespective of handicap.
 

Hobbit

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There is also the amount of 'effort' that is put in. A higher handicapper may be putting in all the hours at the range, having lessons etc but it may simply be that 18 is as good as they are going to get. I spent 3 years on an 18 handicap but put in plenty of effort to try and get lower.

Believe it or not it is as intimidating for a higher handicapper to know that they are going to have to get a net bogey on a large number of holes just to get a half as it is for a low handicapper to know that they need to play well to combat the number of shots being given.

Chatting with people at various stages of the club knockout competition it is ironic that low handicappers seem to be worried about being drawn against high handicappers in case they have one of those good days whereas high handicappers worry about being drawn against low handicappers because of they know that they will be facing someone who is regularly paring holes and sticking in a few birdies as well.

I think it is swings and roundabouts. A high handicapper having one of those days is hard to beat but the consistency of a low handicapper is also hard to beat when you are throwing away holes due to a lack of consistency in your game. Nobody has a right to win irrespective of handicap.

Excellent, balanced, post!
 

bladeplayer

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Full Handicaps are fine by me , even in the society where im always giving loads & i mean loads ..

I think when you win or lose a match play match you have a fair idea which you deserved ,
if a high handicapper plays way below his handicap and wins once , thats more than allowed ,
if he does it twice , ok .
any more times .. id be getting suspicious , .. just my opinion

You cant build a system that will be fair to all every time , you cant build a system to protect against rogues (in any walk of life)

The system was introduced on the previso everyone was been honest and up front regarding their ability , so if there is a fault it is down to individuals not handicaps or handicapping system..

3/4 handicapping is just not fair to genuine higher handicapper golfers and because a few decide to mind their handicaps for certain comps its not fair to punish the larger proportion who are genuine ..
 

Liverbirdie

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I think that is the crux of the matter. The lower handicap player is obviously much better and therefore feels very hard done by when they lose. As someone else has suggested though, those players should just stick to scratch events
Why? So everyone else can have all the fun entering all types of events, but cat 1 should content themselves with scratch only, where scratch get no shots, but so do 5 h/cappers. If your off 5 you've little chance of winning anything then. Ye gods! I'm not cat 1, BTW.
 

GB72

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Why? So everyone else can have all the fun entering all types of events, but cat 1 should content themselves with scratch only, where scratch get no shots, but so do 5 h/cappers. If your off 5 you've little chance of winning anything then. Ye gods! I'm not cat 1, BTW.

Losing 5 shots in a scratch event is only the same as a 20 handicapper playing off 3/4 handicap in a normal event.
 

GB72

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Out of interest (as I have no idea of the answer), would someone with a plus handicap play off a higher handicap in 3/4 events. Unlikely I know but if there was someone off plus 3, would they play off plus 2 in a 3/4 event.
 

bladeplayer

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Losing 5 shots in a scratch event is only the same as a 20 handicapper playing off 3/4 handicap in a normal event.


So you think the difference in ability between a 5 handicapper and a scratch player , is the same as the difference between a 20hcap & 15 hcap Greg ??

There might be 5 shots different but they are worlds apart mate
 

Liverbirdie

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Losing 5 shots in a scratch event is only the same as a 20 handicapper playing off 3/4 handicap in a normal event.
No it isn't. Someone off 0 loses no shots, someone off 5 loses 5. When a 20 h/capper loses 5 shots the rest of the field also lose 6/5/4/3/2/1 shots so everyone is losing shots, or at least 95+ percent are.
 

rosecott

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Out of interest (as I have no idea of the answer), would someone with a plus handicap play off a higher handicap in 3/4 events. Unlikely I know but if there was someone off plus 3, would they play off plus 2 in a 3/4 event.

Yes.
 
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