GM debate opportunity - full or 3/4 difference in singles matchplay

[sweatysock41]

Handicap is handicap, either it's a fair system or it's not?

If it's not fair then scrap it and we'll all play off scratch, can really see the sport appealing to the masses then.

Cake and eat it maybe...

But the point is that handicap is based on stroke in which all shots are counted, but different mathematics apply in matchplay, and using 3/4 roughly settles the difference.

Sorry I thought that all shots count on a hole anyway unless your opponent concedes. To me it's irrelevant what the format is. The difference in ability is what the handicap system is trying to address - if its monumentally wrong change it.
As said earlier CONGU have analysed thousands of rounds and come to the conclusion that it is a misconception that full allowance favours the high handicapper.

 

[Region3]

I think full allowance is fair providing the handicaps reflect each players true ability.

I know I'm not really low but I'm as capable of having a mare as most others higher than me so it works both ways.

 

[Imurg]

I think full allowance is fair providing the handicaps reflect each players true ability.

I agree with this up to the point that it is far easier for a high handicapper to have a good day and shoot 5 below handicap than it is for a lower handicap.
But full handicap's, if they are a true reflection of ability should be used..

But it doesn't bother me coz I hate matchplay anyway....

 

[Iaing]

Why not compromise and make it 7/8ths. like Stableford used to be.

 

[JezzE]

Keep it coming - lots of interesting thoughts and ideas here.

Even better if someone feels inclined to throw their hat in the ring and pitch for one of the two spots...

 

[daymond]

Singles matchplay is man v man. Each play with what they bring to the course that day with the handicap they have both honourably achieved.
I cannot understand why one should conceed and the other receive shots whether their handicaps are one or eighteen apart.

 

[backspin22]

In a medal round, a high handicapper can have a disaster hole much more easily than a good player, it can ruin his round. That's why he can have up to 28.
In a match play or stableford, such a hole leads only to a loss or no points. I think this gives him an advantage over the player off 1 or two, who has very little to play with, has to play to his handicap or better at every hole to have a chance.
Gaz, 11

 

[GB72]

But lets say I am a 20 handicapper. I do not get the chance to practice, just enjoy a weekend knock and that is about as good as I am going to get. Why should I lose 5 shots just because there are other 20 hanicappers who are improving or have the odd good round.

The solution to me is not to arbitrarily cut everyone with a 3/4 handicap but rather to adjust the system so as handicaps change quicker and are a more accurate reflection of a persons game on a given day.

 

[Ethan]

Handicap is handicap, either it's a fair system or it's not?

If it's not fair then scrap it and we'll all play off scratch, can really see the sport appealing to the masses then.

Cake and eat it maybe...

But the point is that handicap is based on stroke in which all shots are counted, but different mathematics apply in matchplay, and using 3/4 roughly settles the difference.

Sorry I thought that all shots count on a hole anyway unless your opponent concedes. To me it's irrelevant what the format is. The difference in ability is what the handicap system is trying to address - if its monumentally wrong change it.
As said earlier CONGU have analysed thousands of rounds and come to the conclusion that it is a misconception that full allowance favours the high handicapper.

The pont is that a low handicapper will usually score birdie, par, bogey, but a high handicapper scores par, bogey, blob. In strokeplay, they may score 3 or 4 shots worse than the low man, and fall 2 or 3 shots behind as a result, but in matchplay you can only lose 1 hole per hole, so full handicap over compensates for their difference in handicaps. If the high handicapper could lose 3 or 4 holes on one hole, it should be full handicap, but that isn't how matchplay works. Arguing for full handicap shows a misunderstanding of the handicapping system. In stroke it is based on how many shots worse a high player shoots compared to a low, but in matchplay it is based more on how many holes a high plays worse than a low. There is an important difference.

 

[SharkAttack]

Well all I will say is it is August and I have just been knocked out of my first matchplay competition, still in two singles and my doubles partner is also off 6hcp and we are still in that comp as well. You just have to play to your handicap, have your bad holes at the end and hope your opponents have theirs at the start.

Like everything, luck has a part to play in matchplay. You can play out your socks one day and get beat, then the next day play badly and win out the park.

Shark

 

[viscount17]

as has been said, what's the point in handicaps if you don't then apply them.

I've won and lost off full handicap and the common denominator is that you still have to play well over a majority of holes to win. Maintaining that consistency is the enemy of most high handicappers.

also what has how many points you can or cannot score got to do with matchplay?

 

[rosecott]

It would be interesting if people who have posted - either for or against - can tell us the handicaps of the singles knockout winners at their clubs for, say, the last 5 years. At my club the highest handicap of the finalists in those 5 years was 16. Where were the 28 handicappers?

 

[viscount17]

Other than GB72 (who slaughtered me) I've only played matchplay in a society. Over the last few years the highest handicap in the finals have been 14 - 16.

 

[Pants]

Statistics aren't my forte but if CONGU say that, based on x number of rounds analysed, the matchplay advantage for a low handicapper over a high handicapper is now 55/45% under the full allowance rather than the previous 60/40% on 3/4 allowance, then I'll believe them.

Bob. Sorry, but I don't know you other than your postings on here which I must say bring a breath of life ..... sorry, I digress. Am I right in thinking that the real reason that you wind Smiffy up about not playing him off full handicap is that a) he's a knob and b)you are a teaching Pro, not a tour Pro and as such, you are not necessarily a scratch golfer every time you play.

Not being rude. Just an observation/question.

 

[needmoreclub]

Full allowance has got to be looked at, recently was playing against a 17 h'cap gent,i was giving him 9 shots but he didn't need them as he was 2 over to the turn, needless to say the game was over quickly and he then came out with the usual statement 'Can't believe i played that well'.I've heard this so many times from triumphant match players, think the reason it should be 3/4 h'cap for matchplay is that a guy can have a 10 at a hole but only lose the hole where as in stroke play that's a severe amount to add on to your card. Just my opinion guys probably because i'm fed up getting my a##e kicked in matchplay by teens handicappers.

 

[Tiger]

It would be interesting if people who have posted - either for or against - can tell us the handicaps of the singles knockout winners at their clubs for, say, the last 5 years. At my club the highest handicap of the finalists in those 5 years was 16. Where were the 28 handicappers?

Let's have a look at stableford comps. To a degree a similar principle they allow the high handicapper to have 2 or even 3 god awful holes and still be in the mix. I warrant a large number of stableford comps at your clubs are won by high handicappers. Matchplay however has the 'intimidation/confidence' factor in that if a high h/cap plays a low handicap who gets off to a good start the high handicap is likely to crumble. I think that this element is what has 'masked' the mathematics in the Congu analysis.

Ethan is 100% correct the maths is different.

 

[bobmac]

To all mid / higher h/cappers...
Hopefully, you'll be able to work hard for years at your game, get your h/cap down to single figures or even Cat I and then see how you feel when you get hammered by someone off 15 whose just "having a good day".
It was hard enough in the olden days beating these guys who played lots of away comps. So much so, the powers that be realised there was a problem and introduced the 3 card rule in an attempt to force the bandits to maybe get a realistic h/cap.
But now with 3/4s the low boys stand even less chance of winning anything.

Disclaimer.

Can I also say all mid/high h/caps are not bandits.

I think the only people who have a real outlook on this question are the golfers who have seen both sides...the low boys and girls as they've been there before.

P.S. I only wind up Smiffy coz he loves it.

 

[Smiffy]

Full allowance has got to be looked at, recently was playing against a 17 h'cap gent,i was giving him 9 shots but he didn't need them as he was 2 over to the turn, needless to say the game was over quickly and he then came out with the usual statement 'Can't believe i played that well'.

What would the result have been had you been giving him 3/4's and he'd only got 7 shots?

 

[USER1999]

But your handicap is based on stable ford, not medal. The handicap has already been adjusted lower than perhaps it should be, as your tens count as sixes or sevens.

I can see arguments either way.

One thing that bugs me is that you get the same shot difference off the tombs as off the whites. Full allowance off the whites is a joke at my course. SI one, off the tombs, driver, four iron. Off the whites, driver, gap wedge. Giving a shot here is a farce. Same on several other shot holes.

 

[USER1999]

If a high handicap is such because he can't get down, and has peaked out, at say 22, then fair enough.

The ones I love are the 'I'm off 22 because despite oodles of natural talent, and a swing to die for, I can't be bothered to practice, as I find it boring.' These guys are not even trying to come down, whilst someone who has worked hard on their game to get as low as possible has to give them full allowance.

What is the return for having worked on your game?

if I let my h/cap slip back to 15, I'll clean up.