Serious breach of etiquette.

[Jacko_G]

This is the problem with multiple questions tied up in the last one 're what would happen if?'

Dealing with your various questions -

1. Yes 1.2 a/1 says so, and covers examples.
2. The committee would have to decide but as the above interpretation specifically states that deliberately interfering with another player's rights is a serious breach worthy of DQ it will come down to circumstances...
3. As others have said, you would be disqualified. What he has said would have to be followed through in practice for the matter to be considered, and that would include you making a timely claim - you can't claim for something that hasn't happened in this context.

So no, there's no contradiction per se in rulie's response - but due process would need to be followed, and I would be wary about walking off claiming the match for a breach of 1.2 by refusing to honour your rights under 13.2 after the first time he did it too! I would start by claiming the hole each time, and escalate from there.

Absolute utter tripe.

You cannot demand that a flag is tended then claim a hole if its not.

 

[clubchamp98]

Imo, the Rules do not decree that the player has the "right" to have the flagstick attended. They say that he "may" have it attended, but do not decree that another player or opponent "must" attend the flagstick. In other words, your position 2.

I didn’t say they did.
I said that’s what they SHOULD HAVE AMENDED TO.
One or the other we would all know then.

 

[Wolf]

I'm sorry but to suggest claiming a hole each time someone doesn't tend the flag is a ridiculous suggestion.

The rule clearly states "may ask" not had a right to, entitled to or obliged to tend when ask, just that a player may ask. It doesn't cover what to do in event of refusal therefore you cannot claim a whole under a breach of any rule as simply no rule is broken.

If someone walks off the course over the matter however I'm claiming the match for failure to complete it under the competition guildlines.

 

[backwoodsman]

I'm sorry but to suggest claiming a hole each time someone doesn't tend the flag is a ridiculous suggestion.

The rule clearly states "may ask" not had a right to, entitled to or obliged to tend when ask, just that a player may ask. It doesn't cover what to do in event of refusal therefore you cannot claim a whole under a breach of any rule as simply no rule is broken.

If someone walks off the course over the matter however I'm claiming the match for failure to complete it under the competition guildlines.

Actually the rules do not say you "may ask" - it says you "may have" (have the flagstick in the hole, or out of the hole - which includes having it attended etc ).

In saying you "may have", the rules give tbe player an entitlement. Obviously the rules do not place an obligation on someone else. But that is obviously where the rather circular arguments about etiquette etc come in ...

Edit: ok, personal pedantry,...
It actually says "may leave..." (flagstick in the hole) or "may have ..." (it removed or attended). But doesn't refer to "asking"

 

[Sweep]

I'd seriously worry why they would not tend the flag... if you continue the match, good on you, but I can see that this would cause a mind set issue knowing the other person is being a muppet about something that is at heart something you need to have to aid you with your putting. I'd have carried on, then marked cards, shook hands and hoped I never seen the guy again... very un-sportsman like, certainly not in keeping with the way the game should be played.

I agree... except I wouldn’t have shaken hands. To me the handshake symbolises the end of the game, a sporting agreement to accept the result, good or bad, with grace either way and to show that you appreciate your opponents sporting behaviour and for a game played in the right spirit.
Anyone petty enough to refuse to tend a flag deserves neither the handshake nor the respect of a fellow golfer and would struggle to get a game at most clubs.
Of course I would have said so in the other thread but that would have just been feeding the trolls.
I do sometimes wonder what the casual visitor to this site must think of us on this forum. Just imagine searching for info on leaving the flagstick in - as many will do right now - and coming up with the other thread. Not the best advert for golf or those on here who discuss it. Some people need to get a life.

 

[Wolf]

Actually the rules do not say you "may ask" - it says you "may have" (have the flagstick in the hole, or out of the hole - which includes having it attended etc ).

In saying you "may have", the rules give tbe player an entitlement. Obviously the rules do not place an obligation on someone else. But that is obviously where the rather circular arguments about etiquette etc come in ...

I'm Sorry but this is where interpretation is dependant on the person.

You're right I stand corrected it says may have.. But that in my interpretation and that of others doesn't give entitlement. I may have the opportunity to play TOC but that doesn't mean I'm entitled to. I may have the opportunity to have a flag tended but again that's not an entitlement afforded to me. The wording makes it non specific and doesn't effect entitlement.

If the wording was "the player is entitled to have the flag left in, tended or removed prior to putting" then entitlement is given and no grey area would exist.

The wording as it is leaves it open to interpretation and that clearly can't be agreed upon as we alone disagree as do others.

I'm happy to tend the pin if asked, but I would confirm first that's their wish now that the flag is allowed to be left in.

I agree... except I wouldn’t have shaken hands. To me the handshake symbolises the end of the game, a sporting agreement to accept the result, good or bad, with grace either way and to show that you appreciate your opponents sporting behaviour and for a game played in the right spirit.
Anyone petty enough to refuse to tend a flag deserves neither the handshake nor the respect of a fellow golfer and would struggle to get a game at most clubs.
Of course I would have said so in the other thread but that would have just been feeding the trolls.
I do sometimes wonder what the casual visitor to this site must think of us on this forum. Just imagine searching for info on leaving the flagstick in - as many will do right now - and coming up with the other thread. Not the best advert for golf or those on here who discuss it. Some people need to get a life.

I agree on the handshake matter but trolls word again... Its used far to much when people disagree

 

[Sweep]

[QUOTE="Wolf, post: 1934177, member: I agree on the handshake matter but trolls word again... Its used far to much when people disagree[/QUOTE]
Sorry but if you look at the other thread, a lot of it is just blatant winding up.

 

[Jacko_G]

[QUOTE="Wolf, post: 1934177, member: I agree on the handshake matter but trolls word again... Its used far to much when people disagree

Sorry but if you look at the other thread, a lot of it is just blatant winding up.[/QUOTE]

No winding up. There is genuinely no reason to now tend a flag.

Your inherent bias and dislike of me has clouded your vision.

 

[chrisd]

So, what if the player refuses to remove the flag when requested?

 

[clubchamp98]

No winding up. There is genuinely no reason to now tend a flag.

Your inherent bias and dislike of me has clouded your vision.[/QUOTE]


So the wishes of your op is not a “genuine reason” in your opinion.

 

[clubchamp98]

So, what if the player refuses to remove the flag when requested?

You can take it out yourself, but that would be a very frosty match.
but if he won’t attend it ? This is what I want to know!

My main problem with this is ,,I like pin out for all putts, but if I can’t see the hole I have it attended.
If my op refuses where does my choice go?

Rule 1 says “ Play by the rules and in the spirit of the game”

Rule 1.2 “ showing consideration to others”

Not seeing much of that etiquette here.

 

[Wolf]

Sorry but if you look at the other thread, a lot of it is just blatant winding up.

Don't need to look at the other thread I've commented on their enough.

And I actually agree there is now no need to have the flag tended under new rules, is that winding people up that I disagree or is it OK as I'm not a certain poster therefore not a troll.

You can take it out yourself, but that would be a very frosty match.
but if he won’t attend it ? This is what I want to know!

My main problem with this is ,,I like pin out for all putts, but if I can’t see the hole I have it attended.
If my op refuses where does my choice go?

Rule 1 says “ Play by the rules and in the spirit of the game”

Rule 1.2 “ showing consideration to others”

Not seeing much of that etiquette here.

Don't recall seeing anyone say they won't remove the the flag if asked. Only they wouldn't attend it as its no longer required under new rules the 2 are quite seperate things and if asked they would remove flag but possibly not tend it.

It could be equally argued that you like it tended as that's been your only other option under the rules till now and until you try a few times leaving it in you won't know what you prefer and that refusal to try leaving it in is not in the spirit of how others wish to play the game, because it is within the rules to leave it in now so no real breach of any rule has occurred.

As for showing consideration to others whilst I agree it would be disrespectful to flat out refuse, people could argue a point for consideration of them being able to get ready to play with the flag in is something not being offered to them whilst they tend the flag unnecessarily for you.

Yes I'm playing devil's advocate on those last 2 points but even those are open to interpretation because it comes down to how we each perceive the spirit and interpretation of a rule as I've mentioned in previous posts the wording doesn't give entitlement no matter how it's spun.

It's going to be interesting to see what happens..[/QUOTE]

 

[chrisd]

You can take it out yourself, but that would be a very frosty match.
but if he won’t attend it ? This is what I want to know!

My main problem with this is ,,I like pin out for all putts, but if I can’t see the hole I have it attended.
If my op refuses where does my choice go?

Rule 1 says “ Play by the rules and in the spirit of the game”

Rule 1.2 “ showing consideration to others”

Not seeing much of that etiquette here.

If I had good reason to want the flag attended and my opponent refused, then I may well take the view that I wouldn't wish to remove the flag for him as both actions are purely based in the etiquette section of the rule book and is therefore not compulsory to do.

 

[Kellfire]

“May have” means “are allowed to” in this situation, for me. Therefore there is no entitlement to have it tended but it’s allowed if your opponent is happy to.

Certainly no serious breach etiquette if they don’t.

 

[virtuocity]

Really don't understand some folk. Golf (and winning) is clearly far too important.

I think if it was me, I'd have done exactly the same thing as the OP, and would have shaken hands and walked in. However, I would have done so on the understanding that I had conceded the match. I would have also explained to the opponent my reasons for doing so, and expressed my disappointment that he acted in such a way.

If I wanted to win the tie to the point that it was worth enduring a further 3 hours with that idiot, I wouldn't have gambled on the committee retrospectively sorting this out for me- I would bite my tongue, play on and try my best to do well.

Golf is a hobby, and while it has rules and etiquette directives, overidding these is an underlying continuous assessment of 'is this better than spending time with my kids'- in such scenarios, I'd be off home, without being too pissed off, as, frankly, it doesn't matter that much to me.

Sorry to hear you experienced that though.

 

[clubchamp98]

If I had good reason to want the flag attended and my opponent refused, then I may well take the view that I wouldn't wish to remove the flag for him as both actions are purely based in the etiquette section of the rule book and is therefore not compulsory to do.

As I said a very frosty match.

Would you then watch where his ball goes, help him look for it.
Make him put every ball in the hole.
I don’t call that golf .

 

[clubchamp98]

Don't need to look at the other thread I've commented on their enough.

And I actually agree there is now no need to have the flag tended under new rules, is that winding people up that I disagree or is it OK as I'm not a certain poster therefore not a troll.



Don't recall seeing anyone say they won't remove the the flag if asked. Only they wouldn't attend it as its no longer required under new rules the 2 are quite seperate things and if asked they would remove flag but possibly not tend it.

It could be equally argued that you like it tended as that's been your only other option under the rules till now and until you try a few times leaving it in you won't know what you prefer and that refusal to try leaving it in is not in the spirit of how others wish to play the game, because it is within the rules to leave it in now so no real breach of any rule has occurred.

As for showing consideration to others whilst I agree it would be disrespectful to flat out refuse, people could argue a point for consideration of them being able to get ready to play with the flag in is something not being offered to them whilst they tend the flag unnecessarily for you.

Yes I'm playing devil's advocate on those last 2 points but even those are open to interpretation because it comes down to how we each perceive the spirit and interpretation of a rule as I've mentioned in previous posts the wording doesn't give entitlement no matter how it's spun.

It's going to be interesting to see what happens..

[/QUOTE]

Do you really think I havnt tried flag left in?
I have many times and don’t like it, that’s why I ask for the courtesy of attending the flag.
I have said many times I have the flag out for all my putts.

It’s a choice that I have ,so I choose to have it.

 

[clubchamp98]

Really don't understand some folk. Golf (and winning) is clearly far too important.

I think if it was me, I'd have done exactly the same thing as the OP, and would have shaken hands and walked in. However, I would have done so on the understanding that I had conceded the match. I would have also explained to the opponent my reasons for doing so, and expressed my disappointment that he acted in such a way.

If I wanted to win the tie to the point that it was worth enduring a further 3 hours with that idiot, I wouldn't have gambled on the committee retrospectively sorting this out for me- I would bite my tongue, play on and try my best to do well.

Golf is a hobby, and while it has rules and etiquette directives, overidding these is an underlying continuous assessment of 'is this better than spending time with my kids'- in such scenarios, I'd be off home, without being too pissed off, as, frankly, it doesn't matter that much to me.

Sorry to hear you experienced that though.

It’s not happened yet!
It was a hypothetical question based on some comments on the forum.
But my guess is it’s going to happen a lot, and some folk are not as diplomatic as you.
I just don’t understand why someone would refuse a request to attend just because the rules say they don’t have to!
To me that’s just bad manners (etiquette) call it what you like.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Do you really think I havnt tried flag left in?
I have many times and don’t like it, that’s why I ask for the courtesy of attending the flag.
I have said many times I have the flag out for all my putts.

It’s a choice that I have ,so I choose to have it.[/QUOTE]

Your problem is that your opponent also has a choice.

Why is your choice to have the flag attended more important than his choice to play the match without that delay?

(And vice versa. )

 

[clubchamp98]

Do you really think I havnt tried flag left in?
I have many times and don’t like it, that’s why I ask for the courtesy of attending the flag.
I have said many times I have the flag out for all my putts.

It’s a choice that I have ,so I choose to have it.

Your problem is that your opponent also has a choice.

Why is your choice to have the flag attended more important than his choice to play the match without that delay?

(And vice versa. )[/QUOTE]
Well he can have the flag anyway he likes when he is putting.
I would expect the same when I am putting.