Scottish independence

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

There's two problems with this....
1) according to a leading Scottish publication - although most Scots "want" devo max, the vast majority of those that want it don't actually understand what it is..... are we as a nation really that desperate to "govern" ourselves that we're prepared to vote for ANYTHING, even if we don't actually know what it is, other than the status quo?!!?
2) devo max is a SHAM.... it's having our cake & eating it... it says, we'll have all of the best bits, but not the messy and/or expensive bits... it gives us more "power", yet leaves the SNP and it's supporters free to whinge for the next 20 years about Westminster.......

C'mon folks - we've either got the cajones to stand on our own and accept ALL that entails (one things for sure - it won't be the panacea that the SNP have us believe), or we don't. Why go for a halfway house?



I have nothing against independence...... but surely we need the full facts, warts'n'all, in front of us before we go rushing to a YES vote. Anything else is really troubling...... after all - poor planning only gets you to one place in life, nomatter the situation

This is good - so let me get this straight..... you don't trust Westminster but you'd trust the SNP who have no plan whatsoever for the practicalities of independence or the affordability of all of their promises?... merely the word of Alex Salmond and his band of merry men/women that things will be just super, and let's not worry about such trivialities??!!?:rofl:

I actually agree with all of the above. My point about RD and the BT campaign is that there seems to be an assumption that a NO will not result in the status quo but additional powers - towards devo max (whatever that is).

At the moment voters seem to be faced with a YES campaign unclear about consequences and "whatabouteries" and a NO campaign unwilling or unable to answer "whattheneries".

The YES campaign will not be willing or able to answer all questions about what will happen after a YES - but they have to be honest on that and can only ask for a big bit of self-belief and faith. The BT campaign likewise will not define what will happen next after a NO - but if they can't promise anything new then just say that and promise the status quo. Problem is for BT I'm guessing that the status quo will be under pressure from voters in England re the Barnett formula and the West Lothian question.

 

[Sweep]

I'll take your Devo Max and raise it HS2.

HS2 Nobody wants it.
It stops at Birmingham
It will cost £80 BILLION
And Scots have to pay for it.
Fantastic.

At least we paid oor ain money for the Edinburgh Trams fiasco.

It's the same if you live in Manchester.
However, I am glad you got your trams. Our system was supposed to be extended 15 years ago and it's just being done now. Why? because after buying up all the land, houses etc needed to extend the system, Alistair Darling decided the money was needed for the London Crossrail project, which was a cornerstone of the London Olympic bid.
In the end, it's all part of being a nation. Let's face it, London makes a load of cash for us all and I wouldn't live there for a gold pig.
If you want to cut yourself off from that kind of cash and want to leave the nation, go ahead and vote for independence. But it's a massive leap of faith in some very dodgy arithmetic IMO.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

...go ahead and vote for independence. But it's a massive leap of faith in some very dodgy arithmetic IMO.

which is true - but for many it is not simply about bawbees. I find it sad, though understandable, that the independence debate largely seems to come to down to whether or not the individual would be financially better or worse off in the short term (let's say up to 10yrs).

The independence vote isn't for the short term and the decision won't easily be reversable or changed - certainly not in the short term. Unlike most referendum or votes this isn't one that can be revisited in 5, 10 or 20 yrs time. Either way the decision is for most of us pretty much for good - one reason why I believe the broader non-dom Scots community should have some say in the decision.

 

[Sweep]

which is true - but for many it is not simply about bawbees. I find it sad, though understandable, that the independence debate largely seems to come to down to whether or not the individual would be financially better or worse off in the short term (let's say up to 10yrs).

The independence vote isn't for the short term and the decision won't easily be reversable or changed - certainly not in the short term. Unlike most referendum or votes this isn't one that can be revisited in 5, 10 or 20 yrs time. Either way the decision is for most of us pretty much for good - one reason why I believe the broader non-dom Scots community should have some say in the decision.

Absolutely agree. I was rather thinking would Scotland be better off? Personally I doubt it and as I say would take a massive leap of faith by the Scottish people, especially considering, as you say, it's for good. Now, would England ​be better of if Scotland voted to leave the Union? Therein lies an interesting question!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Absolutely agree. I was rather thinking would Scotland be better off? Personally I doubt it and as I say would take a massive leap of faith by the Scottish people, especially considering, as you say, it's for good. Now, would England ​be better of if Scotland voted to leave the Union? Therein lies an interesting question!

Indeed - and I'll add that you can ask about a nation or indeed an individual being better off in more contexts other than money.

The truth is that I suspect that few if any have any real idea whether somene living in Scotland will be better off financially in say 5 or 10yrs time. And once the deed is done either way it will not be possible to make that assessment - all will be hypothetical because there will be only one truth or actual state of affairs and nothing real to compare it with. So you might as well just vote on the basis of things other than financial predictions of how better or worse off you'll be - because you'll never know.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

And so Radio 5Live debate on independence. I have to say that the debate seems to revolve around the YES campaign trying to rebut claims from BT of lack of clarity about what will happen following a YES vote, and the BT campaign being unable or unwilling to define what will happen following a NO vote.

The point of that observation is that the majority of Scots seem to want some form of change from the current situation. For voters to make an informed decision I think they need to know what will happen and change after the vote. The YES campaign need to try and firm up as best they can around what they are saying will change; the BT campaign need to do better than tell the voters that they'll come up with their proposals before the referendum on what will happen after a NO vote. At the moment BT are offering nothing - so there is nothing to debate other than what the YES campaign is offering - is this cunning or cynical?

 

[FairwayDodger]

The point of that observation is that the majority of Scots seem to want some form of change from the current situation.

This is currently the most irritating thing about the whole "debate" for me. Every time the referendum is discussed it seems to be take as "given" that most scots want either independence or more devolution. Maybe that is the majority view, but nothing is ever given to back up that assumption....

Personally, I'd roll the whole thing back and do away with the Scottish parliament! It seems those with my viewpoint are disenfranchised....

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I see that the BBC has been accused of biased national attitudes towards the independence vote.
That is no real shock there but you would think that the British government would ensure an open and honest debate.
No surprise that a lot of BBC programming has been switched to Scotland in the last couple of years. Finally giving us a few crumbs to feed off.
The timing of the Royal Mail sell off also appears to be politically motivated to cause as much confusion as possible. Surely that could have been delayed until after the vote.

From what I gather there has been practically no media debate on the issue outside of Scotland.
As a fully independent Scotland would have a big impact on the rest of the UK, I find that disturbing.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

This is currently the most irritating thing about the whole "debate" for me. Every time the referendum is discussed it seems to be take as "given" that most scots want either independence or more devolution. Maybe that is the majority view, but nothing is ever given to back up that assumption....

On basis of polls showing a liking for the notion of Devo Max I assume.

Personally, I'd roll the whole thing back and do away with the Scottish parliament! It seems those with my viewpoint are disenfranchised....

Which cannot happen. So your 2nd preference? (you don't need to answer that - just that your 1st preference is a non-starter, in fact doesn't even qualify for consideration)

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

From what I gather there has been practically no media debate on the issue outside of Scotland.
As a fully independent Scotland would have a big impact on the rest of the UK, I find that disturbing.

Correct - why I listened to the debate on national radio this morning.

BTW I wrote to my constituency MP (Jeremy Hunt) and both the MSP (Ken Macintosh) and the Westmister MP (Jim Murphy) for my 'home' Glasgow constituency opn ther voting franchise not covering non-doms. Interestingly the latter two (for non-Scots on here both Labour) seemed to assume that as a non-dom I would have voted NO and in their replies were critical to varying degrees of the decision to not allow me to vote - but stated that the matter was settled.

Jeremy of course, understandably wished success for the BT (NO) campaign.

 

[FairwayDodger]

Which cannot happen. So your 2nd preference? (you don't need to answer that - just that your 1st preference is a non-starter, in fact doesn't even qualify for consideration)

Obviously isn't going to happen but my real "issue" is that the status quo appears to not be an option. We're slipping even further down the devolution road without even asking if it's what people want.

I'd be interested to see any polls that asked a fair choice between status quo/devo max/independence just to see how out of step I am with popular opinion. Got any links?

I think a lot of people favour devo max as a way to appease the independence supporters.

 

[mikee247]

lol - do you honestly believe any member of the public influences any party once they're in power?

Anyway, we want your oil money...

"your oil money"? dont you mean "Our oil money?" We dont want your benefit drain though thanks.... you can keep that. And that weird bag pipe thingy..... No ta.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

"your oil money"? dont you mean "Our oil money?" We dont want your benefit drain though thanks.... you can keep that. And that weird bag pipe thingy..... No ta.

I think the housing benefit paid to the SE of England would be a far greater sum than the oil revenues to the national account.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...to-reject-independence-re-elect-snp-1-3082139

Good indication to the rest of the UK as to where Scotland stands

 

[Shaunmg]

If Scotland go independent; I suggest us Northerners vote to become part of Scotland. The southerners are welcome to have England all by themselves.

Us Jocks can then still play the open at Birkdale, Lytham and Royal Liverpool.

Sorted!

 

[Coatsy79]

I think the housing benefit paid to the SE of England would be a far greater sum than the oil revenues to the national account.

Your probably right, but apparently it's in-human to ask anyone who relies on housing benefit in London to move somewhere cheaper

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Obviously isn't going to happen but my real "issue" is that the status quo appears to not be an option. We're slipping even further down the devolution road without even asking if it's what people want.

I'd be interested to see any polls that asked a fair choice between status quo/devo max/independence just to see how out of step I am with popular opinion. Got any links?

I think a lot of people favour devo max as a way to appease the independence supporters.

Well if there is no appetite for any change then the BT campaign seem on course to provide that. If the vote is then NO there will be an election - and if any party then campaigns on a status quo then if that is the will of the people that party will form a government. If, following a NO, rthere is a swell of opinion for some change then you can be sure the SNP will be in there campaigning on that basis - as may also might Scottish Labour. So I wouldn't worry about whether or not there is a 'we want some change' majoprity.

But I should caution voters who may seek some move towards devo max. It seems to me that a NO vote without commitment from the BT to deliver will result in no change. And once you have no change you will be stuck with it and will have to operate within whatever future financial, market, economic and international environment Westminster determines for the UK.

 

[FairwayDodger]

Well if there is no appetite for any change then the BT campaign seem on course to provide that. If the vote is then NO there will be an election - and if any party then campaigns on a status quo then if that is the will of the people that party will form a government. If, following a NO, rthere is a swell of opinion for some change then you can be sure the SNP will be in there campaigning on that basis - as may also might Scottish Labour. So I wouldn't worry about whether or not there is a 'we want some change' majoprity.

I'd be quite happy with that. However, with all the parties talking about some sort of increased devolution (without getting into specifics, as per usual for politicians) I fear nobody will seek a "no change" mandate. Perhaps that really is the overwhelming mood in the country, I'd just like to see that discussed rather than accepted as a fait accompli.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I'd be quite happy with that. However, with all the parties talking about some sort of increased devolution (without getting into specifics, as per usual for politicians) I fear nobody will seek a "no change" mandate. Perhaps that really is the overwhelming mood in the country, I'd just like to see that discussed rather than accepted as a fait accompli.

Quite agree with you there FD.

Interesting that in the Hootsmon [Scotsman] poll most felt that devo max would lead to greater taxes.
10,000 interviews give a pretty fair response.
I thought the Eton Mess made some kind of heart hearted promise towards devo max a few months ago.
Scottish Labour are totally lost with this they seem to be trying to agree with everyone...a bit like Blair before he was elected!!

 

[mikee247]

Your probably right, but apparently it's in-human to ask anyone who relies on housing benefit in London to move somewhere cheaper

Is it really? lol thats just typical of modern day politically correctness. Maybe we could sell it to them... hey guys move somewhere cheaper, its got lots of space, nice big hills and its own Major golf competition!! Maybe you can get a real job... as a caddy