Alex Salmond's govts white paper on Independence
he's spending a further £800,000 apparently of tax payers money to help 'sell' it :mmm:
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Scottish independence
- Thread starter gryffindor
- Start date
Alex Salmond's govts white paper on Independence
he's spending a further £800,000 apparently of tax payers money to help 'sell' it :mmm:
Doon frae Troon
Ryder Cup Winner
Govan has higher skill levels and cheaper wages than Portsmouth.
Simples.
Simples.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
No surprise there then - I didn't expect BT to be publishing anything about Scotland post a NO. You listen to angry Portsmouth shipyard workers and they will be looking for their pound of flesh from a post-NO Scotland.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Maybe - but that's not what a lot of English are saying and more are thinking. They are furious and are thinking that this is simply a political ploy by Westminster to influence the referendum vote. So Alex Salmond's £800,000 White Paper cited by CMAC is peanuts compared with what Westminster is spending in support of BT.
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
i'm just tired with the whole debacle. I just want the Scots to make their mind up, stay with us or go away. I would prefer them with us but I just cant be fussed with all this political wrangling.
FairwayDodger
Money List Winner
I'm pretty depressed that just about everything at the moment turns into a Scotland v England debate. Hundreds of people are losing their jobs, on both sides of the border and people are arguing about whether it's a ploy or not. Let's get the damn referendum over with and then we can move on.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
It's not a debacle - and by describing the referendum vote and debate as 'a debacle' is exactly the sort of stuff that plays into the hands of the YES campaign as it just screams of ignorance around how Scots view themselves and their place in the world.
I'm afraid to say your observation may well be held by many who don't actually understand what this is actually all about. This isn't a piddling little media-driven 'plebgate' type debate that drags on and on for no real or obvious purpose - other than to sate the appetite of Westminster journo's and politico's. So just because you are 'bored' of it (because you feekl it has notthing to do with you), it is insulting to refer to the referendum debate as a debacle.
And btw 'Scots' are not making their minds up - it is those living in Scotland or otherwise eligible to vote who are making their minds up
Adi2Dassler
Journeyman Pro
I read a quote from a Govan worker last night and his interpretation of the threat of removing the work post any Yes victory next year...something like 'we'll remove the knife from the wound and release the blood if you vote yes'
I think the obvious threat is crass and disgraceful, and sycophantic politicians spewing 'regret' over 1800 job losses makes me feel sick.I honestly believe these Eton/Harrow scum running our country don't give a monkeys about what happens outside the M25.
No, because the rUK govt claim they'll never build a warship outside the UK, we've all heard the claim, made by many coalition reps this passed 48 hrs, haven't we?...but hold on a minute-
http://wingsoverscotland.com/spread-around-town/
or what about the 4 tankers given to Korea over both Portsmouth and the Clyde?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17127488
So The MoD gives contracts to BAE ( a ftse 100 company) and they decide where to put the work (I'm not getting into who's better/cheaper in relation to govan/Portsmouth, I bet they're all brilliant shipbuilders and honest decent workers) BAE are told by Westminster to use only UK yards, so post YES The Clyde will be out the box.
But any indy Scotland will need ships, too,yes?We'll need to build ships, so Holyrood tells BAE that we'll give you the contract, but only use Rosyth/Clyde where you've invested heavily in people/infrastructure already.Plus why be so reliant on MoD contracts?It's a very narrow view, isn't it?Our pals across the North Sea built over 100 ships last year, and not one for our awfully benevolent MoD
http://www.shipbuildingnorway.com/volume-17/ships-delivered-in-2012-2/
I'm struggling to understand how/why people take such a narrow,negative point of view, whether it's about The UK or Scotland alone.With investment our skilled workers beat anyone imo but the current agenda does it no good.It's needs rethought, we need re-tooled in our industries and moved away from financial phone monkeys and university for all to study English lit. Get a trade, employ kids,create consumers/tax payers.
vote AYE
I think the obvious threat is crass and disgraceful, and sycophantic politicians spewing 'regret' over 1800 job losses makes me feel sick.I honestly believe these Eton/Harrow scum running our country don't give a monkeys about what happens outside the M25.
No, because the rUK govt claim they'll never build a warship outside the UK, we've all heard the claim, made by many coalition reps this passed 48 hrs, haven't we?...but hold on a minute-
http://wingsoverscotland.com/spread-around-town/
or what about the 4 tankers given to Korea over both Portsmouth and the Clyde?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17127488
So The MoD gives contracts to BAE ( a ftse 100 company) and they decide where to put the work (I'm not getting into who's better/cheaper in relation to govan/Portsmouth, I bet they're all brilliant shipbuilders and honest decent workers) BAE are told by Westminster to use only UK yards, so post YES The Clyde will be out the box.
But any indy Scotland will need ships, too,yes?We'll need to build ships, so Holyrood tells BAE that we'll give you the contract, but only use Rosyth/Clyde where you've invested heavily in people/infrastructure already.Plus why be so reliant on MoD contracts?It's a very narrow view, isn't it?Our pals across the North Sea built over 100 ships last year, and not one for our awfully benevolent MoD
http://www.shipbuildingnorway.com/volume-17/ships-delivered-in-2012-2/
I'm struggling to understand how/why people take such a narrow,negative point of view, whether it's about The UK or Scotland alone.With investment our skilled workers beat anyone imo but the current agenda does it no good.It's needs rethought, we need re-tooled in our industries and moved away from financial phone monkeys and university for all to study English lit. Get a trade, employ kids,create consumers/tax payers.
vote AYE
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
I read a quote from a Govan worker last night and his interpretation of the threat of removing the work post any Yes victory next year...something like 'we'll remove the knife from the wound and release the blood if you vote yes'
I think the obvious threat is crass and disgraceful, and sycophantic politicians spewing 'regret' over 1800 job losses makes me feel sick.I honestly believe these Eton/Harrow scum running our country don't give a monkeys about what happens outside the M25.
No, because the rUK govt claim they'll never build a warship outside the UK, we've all heard the claim, made by many coalition reps this passed 48 hrs, haven't we?...but hold on a minute-
http://wingsoverscotland.com/spread-around-town/
or what about the 4 tankers given to Korea over both Portsmouth and the Clyde?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17127488
So The MoD gives contracts to BAE ( a ftse 100 company) and they decide where to put the work (I'm not getting into who's better/cheaper in relation to govan/Portsmouth, I bet they're all brilliant shipbuilders and honest decent workers) BAE are told by Westminster to use only UK yards, so post YES The Clyde will be out the box.
But any indy Scotland will need ships, too,yes?We'll need to build ships, so Holyrood tells BAE that we'll give you the contract, but only use Rosyth/Clyde where you've invested heavily in people/infrastructure already.Plus why be so reliant on MoD contracts?It's a very narrow view, isn't it?Our pals across the North Sea built over 100 ships last year, and not one for our awfully benevolent MoD
http://www.shipbuildingnorway.com/volume-17/ships-delivered-in-2012-2/
I'm struggling to understand how/why people take such a narrow,negative point of view, whether it's about The UK or Scotland alone.With investment our skilled workers beat anyone imo but the current agenda does it no good.It's needs rethought, we need re-tooled in our industries and moved away from financial phone monkeys and university for all to study English lit. Get a trade, employ kids,create consumers/tax payers.
vote AYE
If contracts were withdrawn following a YES vote - would that be breach of European or Contractual law? Are the contracts for the Type 26 frigates going to include a get out clause that allows the contract to be cancelled if Scotland votes YES - hmmm. BAE Systems will accept that...
And in any case would it not be the case that BAE Systems could, with yards in an independent Scotland, bid for rUK defence shipbuilding contracts - what would stop them? I would have thought that under European Law and SMART procurement they would have to be allowed to bid for the work.
FairwayDodger
Money List Winner
I think the planned timetable is such that the frigate contracts won't actually be signed until after the referendum anyway (but before any ensuing breakup takes place, so that'll be fun).
There is an exemption for defence contracts in EU law that allows countries to restrict them to domestic suppliers. Interestingly, that would work against an independent Scotland bidding for UK defence work. They'd either be barred completely (as per other foreign nations) or they'd have to compete on cost against all-comers.
Adi2Dassler
Journeyman Pro
But a new Scottish Navy would require ships, thus allowing Holyrood to use Scottish shipbuilders.If we needed tankers we could offer them to The Clyde...might cost a few more million compared to Samsung in Korea, but we'd be keeping jobs,creating new ones, thus creating tax payers/consumers.
And anyone who thinks that rUK govt is going to build 15 new type 26 ships is mental...that'll be scaled back quick smart, all at the expense of muggins in Glasgow/Portsmouth.
I like the way SAAB do business...your government wants warplanes?We'll sell you warplanes and as a thankyou, we'll invest in your country.
Doon frae Troon
Ryder Cup Winner
What many forget is that an 800 job loss in Scotland has the same impact as an 8,000 job loss in England.
The headlines in all the Scottish papers make very dour reading.
The headlines in all the Scottish papers make very dour reading.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
That's how most major defence companies work - including BAE Systems.
If you wonder how diddy country X can afford to buy nice new jet fighters - well they often don't buy them outright. The defence company invests in building such as major hotel and leisure complexes in the country; manages them; and takes all the profit for so many years. Then once the profit has paid for the aircraft the complexes are sold off or ownership transferred to the country. Meanwhile the UK government agrees an export guarantee to cover the cost of the aircraft in case something goes awry in diddy country X and the defence company cannot take out the profits as planned.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Good old rammy on this subject last night on QT. Is the 'promise' to the Govan and Scotstoun shipyards (and hence to Glasgow and Scotland) of a post referendum contract to build the Type 26 frigates a bribe or blackmail?
chrisd
Major Champion
Couldn't quite get QT last night. Everyone clapped everything, everyone wanted Nigel to be hung drawn and quartered but agreed with him and the eejit Tory said that no ships were being built in Korea to Nigel, but refused to elaborate on the supply ships that are being built there!
Crazy place Boston!
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
She really fancied herself as a bit of a straight talker - but I have great suspeiciions of anyone - even politicians - who put on that fake 'quizzical' look when pretending that a statement made by another or a question posed to her is completely incomprehensible. Her on the ships - yup - does she not see that her very narrow and pedantic view on 'naval vessels' when making her arguments is so easily seen through and is riseable.
And on Farage - yes there seemed to be a fair amount of supporting his point of view in teh audience except when they were asked more specifically to support his point of view. 'I'll oppose him when he is expressing his pov- but I'll applaud others who are broadly supportive of his pov' hmm.
MegaSteve
Tour Winner
More or less the same every week...
More or less the same every time he's on the panel..
Not exactly Mr Popular but he says a lot of what many are thinking...
Doon frae Troon
Ryder Cup Winner
The latest information regarding figures that state immigrants contribute more to the exchequer than the locals tends to blow Farage's party out of the water.
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
So I guess its OK for people to live off the state while Immigrants do the jobs they are too lazy to do? If we deduct the cost of keeping bone idle Brits at home it all goes a bit pear shape. We hear a constant drone on the rising costs of the ageing population but these new entries will grow old add to these costs. I also read that the population of the UK is set to rise to over 75 Million over the next 25 years, how on earth will we be able to support these numbers.
I despair with the argument that immigration is a blessing.
Doon frae Troon
Ryder Cup Winner
It is to Scotland. Our population is set to rise to 6.5 million a figure that our infrastructure could easily cope with.
