Score Differential in Bogey Comp

[Orikoru]

I don't view handicapping as being stableford based.
The handicapping system could exist as it is, even if stableford had never been invented.
I view stableford as having a similarity to the nett double bogey limit used in handicapping.

But if your stableford score dominates your thinking more than your gross score for 18 holes, then you are free to continue thinking that way.

I view my golf score to be my gross score for 18 holes and this is then adjusted by a nett double bogey limit for handicapping. I don't see that as being stableford based.
Handicapping: (adjusted gross score - course rating) x (113/slope rating) has no stableford point scoring for me to consider.
I play in many stableford competitions and enjoy them just as much as medals.

I have expressed my view. I believe it is not a majority view at the moment. I am not expressing any wish to compel anyone to have the same view as me.
I believe a forum should be about expressing and sharing different views.

For me it's just a hangover from the old handicap system (which was in place when I first had a handicap, 7 ish years ago). I never knew what gross score I needed to get a cut, but I knew if I got 37 points I'd be looking at one. It's not really like that now though. I think of Stableford and handicapping being similar purely because they both round down/ignore big scores on a hole I suppose.

As a general rule of thumb I often seem to see low players such as yourself favour gross while mid and higher handicappers favour Stableford thinking.

 

[Voyager EMH]

For me it's just a hangover from the old handicap system (which was in place when I first had a handicap, 7 ish years ago). I never knew what gross score I needed to get a cut, but I knew if I got 37 points I'd be looking at one. It's not really like that now though. I think of Stableford and handicapping being similar purely because they both round down/ignore big scores on a hole I suppose.

As a general rule of thumb I often seem to see low players such as yourself favour gross while mid and higher handicappers favour Stableford thinking.

For me, it is not about being a low-handicapper, it is because I remember the time before the last system when stableford comps were rarely played so everyone thought about their gross score rather than their stableford points.

 

[Orikoru]

For me, it is not about being a low-handicapper, it is because I remember the time before the last system when stableford comps were rarely played so everyone thought about their gross score rather than their stableford points.

I do both depending on the situation. Where I am now, at my club, I know that I want to break 80 consistently. And to do that I try to avoid double bogeys. But on a hole-by-hole basis, as we tend to play more Stablefords than Medals, I'm often thinking just make 2 points and move on. Since I stopped getting a shot on every hole I've had to cajole myself out of Stableford thinking a bit though. I was turning up to par 3s where I get no shot and thinking "I must par this" which was putting too much pressure on it and quite unhelpful. Now I try to think, if I don't par it I just need to make a par somewhere else.

 

[badgergm]

R&A advises picking up when hold lost:
https://www.randa.org/en/rog/the-rules-of-golf/rule-21
with no reference to potentially being a qualifier. not right really.

 

[Backsticks]

I don't view handicapping as being stableford based.
The handicapping system could exist as it is, even if stableford had never been invented.
I view stableford as having a similarity to the nett double bogey limit used in handicapping.

But if your stableford score dominates your thinking more than your gross score for 18 holes, then you are free to continue thinking that way.

I view my golf score to be my gross score for 18 holes and this is then adjusted by a nett double bogey limit for handicapping. I don't see that as being stableford based.
Handicapping: (adjusted gross score - course rating) x (113/slope rating) has no stableford point scoring for me to consider.
I play in many stableford competitions and enjoy them just as much as medals.

I have expressed my view. I believe it is not a majority view at the moment. I am not expressing any wish to compel anyone to have the same view as me.
I believe a forum should be about expressing and sharing different views.

This is the correct view. In my view.
That the handicap system, and stableford points system, both have a net double bogey cap is a similarity - not a tieing of the hc system to stableford.
Its just that the same logic has two systems apply the same solution.

 

[D-S]

This is the correct view. In my view.
That the handicap system, and stableford points system, both have a net double bogey cap is a similarity - not a tieing of the hc system to stableford.
Its just that the same logic has two systems apply the same solution.

Did the logic of nett double bogey for handicapping purposes come from or was influenced by Stableford? They could have just as easily chosen nett triple bogey.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Did the logic of nett double bogey for handicapping purposes come from or was influenced by Stableford? They could have just as easily chosen nett triple bogey.

They have chosen a limit of par+5 for first three scores for obtaining a handicap index. After that it becomes a limit of nett double bogey.
No, I do not believe this to be stableford based.
Stableford is a format of strokeplay competition.
Playing stableford on your own would seem fairly pointless.
Playing on your own, calculating your score differential and comparing that to your handicap index, gives you a clear indication of how well you have played.
A score differential that is near equal to your handicap index could give you a stableford score of 32 or 39 points, depending on CR and SR.
Your stableford score is for comparing your score against other players in competition.
Handicapping is handicapping.
Strokeplay competition is strokeplay competition. Stableford is strokeplay competition.

 

[cliveb]

Apologies for resurrecting this old thread, but it seemed appropriate to do so rather than start a new one...

Ignoring the subsequent discussion regarding what formats should be qualifiers, can I return to the original question and ask somebody in the know to confirm that under WHS, in a bogey comp if you pick up when you could have had a net single bogey, it counts as a net double for your differential? Ie. that there is no special treatment for bogey comps in the way there was under CONGU?

(The reason I ask is that my wife has just played in a bogey and came home complaining that her differential was a lot higher than it would have been had she putted out).

 

[rulefan]

I can't see an exception.

3.3 When a Hole is Started But Player Does Not Hole Out
When a player starts a hole but does not hole out for a valid reason, subject to
other provisions set out within the Rules of Handicapping, the player must record
their score as appropriate for the situation and depending on the format of play.

 

[badgergm]

Yes, this is the way it works - you need to record net bogey fir handicap purposes. Different to how it worked pre WHS. Not everyone realisesthough, inc R&A - see post #44 above.

 

[cliveb]

Yes, this is the way it works - you need to record net bogey fir handicap purposes. Different to how it worked pre WHS. Not everyone realisesthough, inc R&A - see post #44 above.

Thanks for referring me back to post #44. Following the link therein, I see this:

Rule 21.3b(2):

• If Hole Is Completed Without Holing Out. If the player does not hole out under the Rules, the scorecard must show either no score or any score that results in the hole being lost. [my emphasis]

And:

Exception – No Penalty If No Effect on Result of Hole: If the player returns a scorecard with a hole score lower than the actual score but this does not affect whether the hole was won, lost or tied, there is no penalty under Rule 3.3b.

My reading of this is that if you pick up in a bogey, recording a score of a net single bogey is valid. Do the rules experts here agree?

 

[D-S]

Thanks for referring me back to post #44. Following the link therein, I see this:

Rule 21.3b(2):

• If Hole Is Completed Without Holing Out. If the player does not hole out under the Rules, the scorecard must show either no score or any score that results in the hole being lost. [my emphasis]

And:

Exception – No Penalty If No Effect on Result of Hole: If the player returns a scorecard with a hole score lower than the actual score but this does not affect whether the hole was won, lost or tied, there is no penalty under Rule 3.3b.

My reading of this is that if you pick up in a bogey, recording a score of a net single bogey is valid. Do the rules experts here agree?

Surely you cannot record any score for handicap purposes when a ball has not been holed out? Unless MLS is in place, which, in this jurisdiction, it isn’t.
I believe it would be simpler, in jurisdictions where MLS is not in place and matchplay is not an acceptable format for handicap purposes, to not have Bogey competitions as ‘qualifying’. This would mean they would be played, as I understand they are meant to be, as matchplay against the course - not as some sort of Stableford and holes won and lost are a by product.

 

[rulefan]

Thanks for referring me back to post #44. Following the link therein, I see this:

Rule 21.3b(2):

• If Hole Is Completed Without Holing Out. If the player does not hole out under the Rules, the scorecard must show either no score or any score that results in the hole being lost. [my emphasis]

And:

Exception – No Penalty If No Effect on Result of Hole: If the player returns a scorecard with a hole score lower than the actual score but this does not affect whether the hole was won, lost or tied, there is no penalty under Rule 3.3b.

My reading of this is that if you pick up in a bogey, recording a score of a net single bogey is valid. Do the rules experts here agree?

Surely this relates to the competition score under the Rules of Golf.

My reference in post #49 is the requirement for the score returned for handicap under WHS.

 

[louise_a]

It is something I have puzzled about in the past, but we dropped our one bogey competition so it doesnt matter, at our club at least.

 

[cliveb]

Surely this relates to the competition score under the Rules of Golf.

My reference in post #49 is the requirement for the score returned for handicap under WHS.

Your previous response refers to rule 3.3, which says:
"...the player must record their score as appropriate for the situation and depending on the format of play."

Rule 21.3b states that if the format of play is bogey, then recording a net single bogey is permitted, and goes on to explicitly state that this is NOT a breach of rule 3.3.

Nowhere does it imply this is only for competition purposes. Indeed, since it refers to rule 3.3, which one of the rules specifically about handicapping, surely it very much DOES include it for handicapping purposes?

 

[Springveldt]

Apologies for resurrecting this old thread, but it seemed appropriate to do so rather than start a new one...

Ignoring the subsequent discussion regarding what formats should be qualifiers, can I return to the original question and ask somebody in the know to confirm that under WHS, in a bogey comp if you pick up when you could have had a net single bogey, it counts as a net double for your differential? Ie. that there is no special treatment for bogey comps in the way there was under CONGU?

(The reason I ask is that my wife has just played in a bogey and came home complaining that her differential was a lot higher than it would have been had she putted out).

I always putted out in our bogey competition even if I had lost the hole for this exact reason as I knew it was going down as a net double bogey if I picked up. I just played it like it was a Stableford comp and marked all my scores.

 

[rulefan]

Your previous response refers to rule 3.3, which says:
"...the player must record their score as appropriate for the situation and depending on the format of play."

Rule 21.3b states that if the format of play is bogey, then recording a net single bogey is permitted, and goes on to explicitly state that this is NOT a breach of rule 3.3.

Nowhere does it imply this is only for competition purposes. Indeed, since it refers to rule 3.3, which one of the rules specifically about handicapping, surely it very much DOES include it for handicapping purposes?

21.3b is from the Rules of Golf.
3.3b is from the Rules of Handicapping.

I assume you are referring to 3.3b Scoring in Stroke Play in the Rules of Golf - if so, which sub clause

 

[rosecott]

We run a number of Bogey comps throughout the year - makes a bit of a change from the usual Stablefords - and I always post this reminder from England Golf:

"A reminder about World Handicap System and singles competitions.

Stableford and Bogey – be aware of the point where you can no longer score a Stableford point or achieve a “half” in a Bogey. You should also be aware that your Competition Handicap may be 1 or even 2 shots lower than your Course Handicap so be careful not to pick up too early as WHS handicap calculations are based on Course Handicaps."

 

[cliveb]

21.3b is from the Rules of Golf.
3.3b is from the Rules of Handicapping.

I assume you are referring to 3.3b Scoring in Stroke Play in the Rules of Golf - if so, which sub clause

OK, I have probably got a bit muddled here. The rule 3.3 I was referring to is the one you quoted in post #49, and it is from the rules of handicapping.
But of course when rule 21.3b refers to "no penalty under rule 3.3b", it is referring to the rules of golf. That's where I got muddled.
But as far as I can see, the exception referring to rule 3.3b is stating that in a bogey comp, recording a lower score than was actually acheived doesn't mean you're disqualified provided the score recorded still constitutes loss of hole. (So that's rule 3.3b sub-clause 3 "wrong score for a hole").

Since rule 21.3b permits a score of net single bogey to be recorded if you fail to hole out, then I see no way that for handicapping purposes this should not be acceptable.
For example, if you're playing a par 4 with no shot, you're allowed to record a 5 if you pick up. And of course if you hole out for 5 then you also record a 5.
How is the handicapping system supposed to distinguish the difference?

 

[sjw]

All this discussion is leading me to believe that there is absolutely no way that a bogey competition should be qualifying.