Score Differential in Bogey Comp

[Voyager EMH]

I don't have it to hand, but am pretty sure that under the old pre-WHS system, there was a table in the CONGU manual that very clearly set out exactly what the bogey score meant in terms of handicapping, and I don't recall anything about taking into consideration net eagles.

Manual said one thing and then the software did an additional thing of taking account of every score entered on each hole, if entered, and this took precedence over +2 or -2 final bogey score.
But if a player picked up on some holes, then only final bogey score was applicable for handicap adjustment.

 

[rosecott]

Bogey comps shouldn't be qualifiers, period.

The mindset is completely different, and in some scenarios, you won't be playing for the best score you can make. eg. Playing a par 5, and have 2 putts for the win. You aren't going to try and make the first putt to make the best score possible...you're going to lag it up to guarantee the win.

Just make them non-qualifying and be done with it.

Looking at Bogey competitions from a purely competition view, I rather enjoy them. If you are putting for a par and a win on a shot hole, you don't have the safety net of a stableford point if you miss - sharpens the focus and I quite like that. I am comfortable with Bogeys being qualifiers as long as I remember which hole has the Stroke Index which is affected by any difference between CH and PH.

 

[Orikoru]

I only played my first ever Bogey comp last year (entered by accident tbh, I think I thought it was going to be a Medal). Once it was explained to me I thought it was odd that it was deemed a qualifier. In my opinion it shouldn't be. To concur with what others have said - not only do you sometimes pick up when in Stableford terms you could have had a point, but also you're going to putt a lot more aggressively for nett par putts than you would normally. Definitely shouldn't be qualifiers in my opinion, or you can't really play the format in the way it's intended.

 

[fundy]

Awful format, just do away with it completely imho

 

[cliveb]

Manual said one thing and then the software did an additional thing of taking account of every score entered on each hole, if entered, and this took precedence over +2 or -2 final bogey score.
But if a player picked up on some holes, then only final bogey score was applicable for handicap adjustment.

Ah right. Did the ISVs make a unilateral decision to add in this extra factor, or were they asked to by CONGU?
If it was CONGU-specified, then I wonder why it wasn't in the manual?

 

[cliveb]

I only played my first ever Bogey comp last year (entered by accident tbh, I think I thought it was going to be a Medal). Once it was explained to me I thought it was odd that it was deemed a qualifier. In my opinion it shouldn't be. To concur with what others have said - not only do you sometimes pick up when in Stableford terms you could have had a point, but also you're going to putt a lot more aggressively for nett par putts than you would normally. Definitely shouldn't be qualifiers in my opinion, or you can't really play the format in the way it's intended.

You could extend the same argument and say that stablefords shouldn't be qualifiers, because there will be times when you putt more aggressively for a net bogey than you would in a medal.
Or, if we accept that handicaps are based on stableford scores, maybe medals shouldn't be qualifiers?
(Just playing devil's advocate here).

 

[Orikoru]

You could extend the same argument and say that stablefords shouldn't be qualifiers, because there will be times when you putt more aggressively for a net bogey than you would in a medal.
Or, if we accept that handicaps are based on stableford scores, maybe medals shouldn't be qualifiers?
(Just playing devil's advocate here).

I don't see that argument because the medal rounds essentially count as Stableford on your handicap record anyway? Ultimately you just want to get down in the lowest score either way, but in Bogey that would mean putting out when you've already lost a hole. In Medal you never pick up and in Stableford picking up doesn't ruin the hole for your handicap, so that's where Bogey is different. If nothing else it negates what would probably be a faster format if it was non-qualifying.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I don’t mind a bogey comp and it never really bothers me too much about handicap qualifying- a little grating when you birdie a hole and it’s might not be worth it etc

Guess you could say should Stablefords be HC qualifying as for some holes you may not put the ball in the hole

So really should it only be medal that’s Handicap Q

 

[fundy]

I don't see that argument because the medal rounds essentially count as Stableford on your handicap record anyway? Ultimately you just want to get down in the lowest score either way, but in Bogey that would mean putting out when you've already lost a hole. In Medal you never pick up and in Stableford picking up doesn't ruin the hole for your handicap, so that's where Bogey is different. If nothing else it negates what would probably be a faster format if it was non-qualifying.

Its worse than that, on several holes playing bogey you may play safe as achieving a better score gets you absolutely nothing. Take someone receiving 9 shots, only worth him trying to make a birdie on half the course!

 

[Orikoru]

Its worse than that, on several holes playing bogey you may play safe as achieving a better score gets you absolutely nothing. Take someone receiving 9 shots, only worth him trying to make a birdie on half the course!

Yeah. I don't disagree with you, it's not a format I'll be rushing to play again. Didn't make a great deal of sense to me. Rather just make the best score I can.

 

[cliveb]

I don't see that argument because the medal rounds essentially count as Stableford on your handicap record anyway? Ultimately you just want to get down in the lowest score either way, but in Bogey that would mean putting out when you've already lost a hole. In Medal you never pick up and in Stableford picking up doesn't ruin the hole for your handicap, so that's where Bogey is different. If nothing else it negates what would probably be a faster format if it was non-qualifying.

I think you've missed my point.
The strategy when playing medal is different to stableford - in stableford, if you're staring at a 20ft putt for a net bogey, you go for it, nothing to lose. In a medal you may very well lag it.
So: given that the strategy is different, why should both formats be considered representative for handicapping purposes?
If you accept that both medal and stableford ARE valid for handicapping, then why shouldn't yet another format with slightly different strategy (eg. bogey) also count?

 

[cliveb]

Its worse than that, on several holes playing bogey you may play safe as achieving a better score gets you absolutely nothing. Take someone receiving 9 shots, only worth him trying to make a birdie on half the course!

Indeed so.
I will never forget that the first hole in one I ever witnessed was an albatross on a short par 4 - in a bogey comp!

 

[fundy]

Indeed so.
I will never forget that the first hole in one I ever witnessed was an albatross on a short par 4 - in a bogey comp!

What do I get for that, 3 under, 5 or 6 points? Nope, 1 up.

I understand stableford restricting scores on the highside, but restricting scores on the lowside will never make any sense to me

 

[Orikoru]

I think you've missed my point.
The strategy when playing medal is different to stableford - in stableford, if you're staring at a 20ft putt for a net bogey, you go for it, nothing to lose. In a medal you may very well lag it.
So: given that the strategy is different, why should both formats be considered representative for handicapping purposes?
If you accept that both medal and stableford ARE valid for handicapping, then why shouldn't yet another format with slightly different strategy (eg. bogey) also count?

First Q: Yes, because missing it is worth the same on your handicap anyway. In bogey you could pick up a putt that's actually worth something for your handicap - you wouldn't do that in Stableford or Medal. That was my point.
Second Q: Because you actually have to go against the intended format and putt out for shots that are meaningless in the comp you're playing but are purely for handicap reasons.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Ah right. Did the ISVs make a unilateral decision to add in this extra factor, or were they asked to by CONGU?
If it was CONGU-specified, then I wonder why it wasn't in the manual?

Don't know how it came about, but I knew exactly how it was working in actual practice.

 

[cliveb]

First Q: Yes, because missing it is worth the same on your handicap anyway. In bogey you could pick up a putt that's actually worth something for your handicap - you wouldn't do that in Stableford or Medal. That was my point.
Second Q: Because you actually have to go against the intended format and putt out for shots that are meaningless in the comp you're playing but are purely for handicap reasons.

Obviously I'm failing to get my thought process across. I'll try to put it another way:

1. You stated that you don't think that bogey comps should be qualifiers because the strategy is different to stableford (wrt taking putts for net pars). I think you may possibly have a fair point.
2. BUT, playing devil's advocate: the strategy in stableford is different to medal (wrt to taking putts for net bogies).
3. Therefore: if this difference in strategy is significant for bogey v. stableford, why isn't it also significant for stableford v. medal?

 

[Orikoru]

Obviously I'm failing to get my thought process across. I'll try to put it another way:

I was thinking exactly the same! I think we're just looking at it two different ways is all.

1. You stated that you don't think that bogey comps should be qualifiers because the strategy is different to stableford (wrt taking putts for net pars). I think you may possibly have a fair point.
2. BUT, playing devil's advocate: the strategy in stableford is different to medal (wrt to taking putts for net bogies).
3. Therefore: if this difference in strategy is significant for bogey v. stableford, why isn't it also significant for stableford v. medal?

The strategy thing was just a side issue really, you're right I suppose that strategy tends to be different in all forms of golf. That alone wouldn't be a reason not to count it. It was mainly just the fact that playing the comp in bogey and playing for handicap would be slightly at odds with each other, whereas in the other formats they're not.

 

[cliveb]

The strategy thing was just a side issue really, you're right I suppose that strategy tends to be different in all forms of golf. That alone wouldn't be a reason not to count it. It was mainly just the fact that playing the comp in bogey and playing for handicap would be slightly at odds with each other, whereas in the other formats they're not.

OK, I think the difference between us has become clear to me.

It seems to me that you are discussing this from the basis of how the handicapping system actually works - ie. being stableford based. And in that respect then I agree that bogey comps don't feel right as qualifiers.

I am looking at it from a more abstract POV, suggesting that handicapping being stableford based is fairly arbitrary. It could just as easily be based on medal scores (which could be considered the "purist" approach), or even bogey scores (which would give everyone lower handicaps and massage their egos).

 

[Region3]

I am looking at it from a more abstract POV, suggesting that handicapping being stableford based is fairly arbitrary. It could just as easily be based on medal scores (which could be considered the "purist" approach)).

Which ironically would annoy the heck out of the purists even more because a scratch will still be a scratch, but a 36 might end up with 40+

 

[Voyager EMH]

I don't view handicapping as being stableford based.
The handicapping system could exist as it is, even if stableford had never been invented.
I view stableford as having a similarity to the nett double bogey limit used in handicapping.

But if your stableford score dominates your thinking more than your gross score for 18 holes, then you are free to continue thinking that way.

I view my golf score to be my gross score for 18 holes and this is then adjusted by a nett double bogey limit for handicapping. I don't see that as being stableford based.
Handicapping: (adjusted gross score - course rating) x (113/slope rating) has no stableford point scoring for me to consider.
I play in many stableford competitions and enjoy them just as much as medals.

I have expressed my view. I believe it is not a majority view at the moment. I am not expressing any wish to compel anyone to have the same view as me.
I believe a forum should be about expressing and sharing different views.