Rules Question

[AmandaJR]

Came up in our match today. Opponent was sure having "attended a course on the rules" and it made no odds as such in terms of the score on the hole. Having read the rule book I think she was right but to check:

Par 3 7th over water. Her shot was struggling/short and I was sure it hit a tree on the far bank and deflected back into the pond/reeds. She suspected the same and I suggested play a provisional and we'd look just in case when we proceeded to the green. She said she couldn't play a provisional if we suspected it was in a water hazard unless the local rules allowed for that. So we went and looked all kind of knowing it was lost and back she then went to drop behind the hazard and playing 3.

I always thought the provisional ball was to save time so can't figure why on earth this wouldn't apply with water hazards but I think the rules state this to be true??

They are as ever a tad confusing and my brain is still defrosting so advice please...

 

[BTatHome]

Probably because if it's lost you get a different set of rules for playing your next shot, than if it went into the hazard.

 

[bigslice]

ive had experiance of this, this rule has caused folk resigning from our committee, folk threating each other, familes falling out, three people writing to R&A. outcome is that if you want to play a provisional your committee have to implement this rule. which means them voting on it and possible not getting it, there is a section in the book that gives a suggested example to show your members, imo

 

[AmandaJR]

Probably because if it's lost you get a different set of rules for playing your next shot, than if it went into the hazard.

Well she said if it wasn't found then it had to be assumed it was in the hazard and then we proceed along those lines. Agreed with you bigslice that the rules book does give an example local rule and something I'd never come across before...

We have a 4 page document given to members about local rules but the back of the scorecard just has a few of them and the obvious ob/staked trees etc so not sure how a visitor could ever know them all

 

[bobmac]

If the ball is lost ie you don't know where it is, the only choice you have is to play again from the last known position of the ball.
If however the ball is lost in a water hazard, you do know where it is, you just can't get to it. So another ball can be put into play by dropping outside the hazard. To do this, you must be virtually certain it is in the hazard.

So basically, you can drop a ball outside because you know where to drop.
If the ball is really lost, there's no way of telling where to drop so back you go.
If you hit a provisional and you get to the hazard and you're NOT SURE if its in the hazard or not, then you must treat it as a lost ball the provisional is in play (after 5 mins of hunting)

 

[SammmeBee]

You can only hit a provisional if you think your ball may be OOB or lost outside a water hazard.....

 

[AmandaJR]

If the ball is lost ie you don't know where it is, the only choice you have is to play again from the last known position of the ball.
If however the ball is lost in a water hazard, you do know where it is, you just can't get to it. So another ball can be put into play by dropping outside the hazard. To do this, you must be virtually certain it is in the hazard.

So basically, you can drop a ball outside because you know where to drop.
If the ball is really lost, there's no way of telling where to drop so back you go.
If you hit a provisional and you get to the hazard and you're NOT SURE if its in the hazard or not, then you must treat it as a lost ball the provisional is in play (after 5 mins of hunting)

I read that half a dozen times and it starts to make sense! But we were all 99% sure it was in the hazard and not finding it on the bank confirmed as much. Just seems to make sense to hit a provisional assuming that (therefore either where the last shot was played OR drop where it crossed the hazard etc etc) to save time...

 

[AmandaJR]

You can only hit a provisional if you think your ball may be OOB or lost outside a water hazard.....

That's easy to remember but still seems a bit of a strange rule when really the only purpose of the provisional is to save time...

 

[Val]

As far as I remember the hazard rule was recently changed where it used to be that you had to see the ball enter the hazard where as now it can be deemed virtually certain it? Please feel free to correct me if that's wrong.

 

[SammmeBee]

If you are hitting a provisional, then you think the ball may be outside of the water - so if you cannot find the original unless you find it in the water, then you must go back and hit another.

Otherwise, you might not like where your 'provisional' is and then think you'll have a second go from taking a drop from behind the water.

 

[AmandaJR]

If you are hitting a provisional, then you think the ball may be outside of the water - so if you cannot find the original unless you find it in the water, then you must go back and hit another.

Otherwise, you might not like where your 'provisional' is and then think you'll have a second go from taking a drop from behind the water.

Bingo - the fog has lifted - thanks for putting it simply enough for me to understand!!

 

[DCB]

Just avoid the water in the first place

 

[MashieNiblick]

Yes Bobmac and Sammeebee have identified the nub of this.

Because you have no choice what to do when the ball is OOB or lost outside a water hazard (play again under penalty of stroke and distance) you play a provsional so that if the original is lost you can carry on with the provisional and not have to walk back to play again.

With a water hazard you have a choice over what you do if your ball is in the hazard. One of those is to replay the shot so it is tempting to think that you ought to be able to play a provisional and carry on with that as a way of exercising that option.

But you have other options under the rules too. If you find the ball in the hazard you can play it as it lies or take a drop. Now if you have a provisional sitting on the fairway or by the hole (or in a gorse bush) you already know for certain the outcome of one of your options (replaying the shot - i.e. proceeding with the provisional). That will influence your choice of what to do next. That isn't in line with how the game is played. You should always have to play (or in this case, choose what to do when getting relief) without knowing the outcome in advance. Essentially you can't choose between 2 balls which one you prefer.

This is how the R&A explained it to me when I asked them years ago why you can't play on with a provisional if you find your ball but want to declare it unplayable.

It's the same reason I think why you can't declare a ball lost just because you have hit a really good provisional.

 

[AmandaJR]

Yes Bobmac and Sammeebee have identified the nub of this.

Because you have no choice what to do when the ball is OOB or lost outside a water hazard (play again under penalty of stroke and distance) you play a provsional so that if the original is lost you can carry on with the provisional and not have to walk back to play again.

With a water hazard you have a choice over what you do if your ball is in the hazard. One of those is to replay the shot so it is tempting to think that you ought to be able to play a provisional and carry on with that as a way of exercising that option.

But you have other options under the rules too. If you find the ball in the hazard you can play it as it lies or take a drop. Now if you have a provisional sitting on the fairway or by the hole (or in a gorse bush) you already know for certain the outcome of one of your options (replaying the shot - i.e. proceeding with the provisional). That will influence your choice of what to do next. That isn't in line with how the game is played. You should always have to play (or in this case, choose what to do when getting relief) without knowing the outcome in advance. Essentially you can't choose between 2 balls which one you prefer.

This is how the R&A explained it to me when I asked them years ago why you can't play on with a provisional if you find your ball but want to declare it unplayable.

It's the same reason I think why you can't declare a ball lost just because you have hit a really good provisional.

Great explanation - thanks very much.

 

[Region3]

I would have said that the very fact that you were looking for the ball on the other side of the hazard means you weren't 'virtually certain' that the ball was in the hazard.

I guess you could say that if you didn't find it on the other side then it must be in the hazard, but if the area you were looking in had grass long enough to lose a ball in then I don't think you can assume it must be in the hazard if you can't find it, especially since it's possible that it hit a tree and could've gone anywhere off that.

 

[Pro Zach]

I agree with Region3 and would also question how she dropped a ball behind the hazard. To do this she needs to know the point it last crossed the margin of the hazard.

 

[Foxholer]

Local Rule notwithstanding, if you play a Provisional, the that is for a Lost (or OOB) Ball and you are implicitly declaring that you are not sufficiently (virtually) certain that is in the water. To subsequently proceed under the Water Hazard rule, ball would need to have been found in the water - so Provisional would be out of play anyway and no time would have been saved.

I know of 1 club (Thorndon Park) that has a local rule allowing a Provisional for water but that is pretty 'safe' as there is only short rough and fairway on the far side of the lake so missing ball would have virtually certainly rolled back down the slope into the deep water.

I believe that between the two of you, you were virtually certain, so proceeded correctly. As the ball didn't seem to cross the far boundary of the hazard, the last point of entry was (also) the first point of entry.

Now, the real fun happens when you subsequently find the original ball on the other side of the hazard! :mmm:

Zach. It is not essential that LPofE is known. As long as there is agreement (without collusion) then that is acceptable. My course had/has a couple of hidden water hazards where an estimate is required. They are actually being tidied up to eliminate doubt, but it was deemed sufficient for Seniors Open Qualifying a couple of years ago.

 

[AmandaJR]

Local Rule notwithstanding, if you play a Provisional, the that is for a Lost (or OOB) Ball and you are implicitly declaring that you are not sufficiently (virtually) certain that is in the water. To subsequently proceed under the Water Hazard rule, ball would need to have been found in the water - so Provisional would be out of play anyway and no time would have been saved.

I know of 1 club (Thorndon Park) that has a local rule allowing a Provisional for water but that is pretty 'safe' as there is only short rough and fairway on the far side of the lake so missing ball would have virtually certainly rolled back down the slope into the deep water.

I believe that between the two of you, you were virtually certain, so proceeded correctly. As the ball didn't seem to cross the far boundary of the hazard, the last point of entry was (also) the first point of entry.

Now, the real fun happens when you subsequently find the original ball on the other side of the hazard! :mmm:

Zach. It is not essential that LPofE is known. As long as there is agreement (without collusion) then that is acceptable. My course had/has a couple of hidden water hazards where an estimate is required. They are actually being tidied up to eliminate doubt, but it was deemed sufficient for Seniors Open Qualifying a couple of years ago.

Thanks. It all makes sense now and definitely one of those rules that I've not come across and neither has anyone else I've played with! Now to when it's my turn to enforce it correctly - heaven help me

 

[Pro Zach]

Cheers Foxholer.


I am currently looking to join a club. I think I'll look for one without water hazards.

 

[AxelBenito]

My course has no water, awesome!